Fallen Pastors: Should We Respond with Rejection or Restoration?

Steve Alessi:
And not be so vocal.

Mary Alessi:
Yeah. And I think it's okay to put your discernment up. You better have to.

Steve Alessi:
You have to.

Mary Alessi:
Part of your, your. Your spirit, part of what's on the inside of you that allows you to make right choices and wrong choices is something from discernment. It is you. You can discern right and wrong. And even though it may not look that way, something on the inside of you says that's just not right.

Steve Alessi:
Yeah.

Mary Alessi:
Foreign. Welcome to another episode of the Family Business with the Alessi's. I'm Steve Alessi and I'm here with my wonderful wife Mary Alessi. And we hope you are enjoying the summer long plays where we're just here chatting.

Steve Alessi:
Yeah. Which is what we do best.

Mary Alessi:
That's what we do best. Hey, if you want to continue to get updates from us, text the word family to 302-524-0800 right now. We've got over 5,500 YouTube subscribers.

Steve Alessi:
Subscribers.

Mary Alessi:
You were looking at it the other day.

Steve Alessi:
Yeah, it's very exciting.

Mary Alessi:
That is. So here's the deal. If you like what you're hearing and listening to, then like it. And then share it with others and subscribe. We have 141 ratings on the Apple podcast. I'm not really sure what that means.

Steve Alessi:
But reviews, that means people have left reviews, right?

Mary Alessi:
Okay.

Steve Alessi:
That's 101 review. That's huge.

Mary Alessi:
All right, Alan gave us the thumbs up. We're good to go. I like your blouse today. Kind of summery.

Steve Alessi:
Do you know that when I walked in the office today, all my friends that are here went crazy over my shirt and I said, I actually have the pants that match. They're just bright yellow that match. And I didn't wear em because I thought that's a lot. And I could just see me lightening up every room I walked in. Too much banana. Yellow pants are a lot.

Mary Alessi:
No, that's good. It's a nice look for you.

Steve Alessi:
Hey, Macy's is coming back. Have you been to a Macy's lately?

Mary Alessi:
I have not.

Steve Alessi:
I'm just telling you, Nordstrom's fell and Macy's is on the rise. I have another question for you.

Mary Alessi:
Yes?

Steve Alessi:
We've never talked about this on a podcast. I think we need to. Especially for people that are just like on a road.

Mary Alessi:
Prepare me for these things.

Steve Alessi:
No, this is easy. This is easy. It shows our personality differences, how we like our coffee. Everybody likes their coffee different. Do you know how I drink my coffee?

Mary Alessi:
Yes, I know.

Steve Alessi:
How do you know? How do you know how I drink my coffee.

Mary Alessi:
Why don't you tell the audience how.

Steve Alessi:
I know you actually make my coffee better than I do.

Mary Alessi:
And I'm not sure that's true. But you say that it is true to keep me making your coffee.

Steve Alessi:
No, it's the truth. I like it with. I like a little coffee with my sugar and milk.

Mary Alessi:
But you have asked to back off the sugar a little bit.

Steve Alessi:
I have. I'm trying to be careful.

Mary Alessi:
Why?

Steve Alessi:
What do you mean?

Mary Alessi:
Why that look on your face.

Steve Alessi:
I'm trying to not eat as much sugar.

Mary Alessi:
Why is there such thing as called sugar creases?

Steve Alessi:
Sugar creases?

Mary Alessi:
Yeah.

Steve Alessi:
What's a sugar crease? Are you talking about when you get fat and you have a crease. What is wrong with you?

Mary Alessi:
I've struggled with.

Steve Alessi:
Here I am trying to give you a.

Mary Alessi:
My entire life. It's terrible. But now there's sugar creases. Sometimes just too much sugar and I get these creases.

Steve Alessi:
I was. I was going in one direction with this conversation and you have to turn it around and make it about being fat.

Mary Alessi:
Aesthetics.

Steve Alessi:
Wow.

Mary Alessi:
But here's what you like. You like your. Course, your milk has to be. I do know this. You like your coffee really hot.

Steve Alessi:
I like it hot. I like the milk. How do I like the milk?

Mary Alessi:
You like it. Froth.

Steve Alessi:
Froth. Creamy. And I like whole milk. I am not a Almond oats.

Mary Alessi:
No, it just doesn't froth enough for you.

Steve Alessi:
Well, I can eat dairy with no problem. I don't know what's wrong with this generation. They can't eat dairy.

Mary Alessi:
Yeah, that's true.

Steve Alessi:
Bunch of babies.

Mary Alessi:
And then a little. Just one. One spoonful of sugar makes the medicine go down.

Steve Alessi:
I love coffee. How do you drink your coffee?

Mary Alessi:
Black.

Steve Alessi:
You're so easy.

Mary Alessi:
Just. Yes.

Steve Alessi:
And you know what's funny is that all our girls just like it black.

Mary Alessi:
Yeah.

Steve Alessi:
Which is weird.

Mary Alessi:
Well, I think, you know, we've been spoiled. They've been. Not me. Mine stopped with the milk after the heart attack. There was a lot of things I got rid of. Like, I don't do salt. I don't salt my food. You don't add salt at all?

Steve Alessi:
Never?

Mary Alessi:
No, never.

Steve Alessi:
We don't even put it on the table.

Mary Alessi:
And milk was another thing. Because of the dairy and the concern with cholesterol and all that. Back in that period of time.

Steve Alessi:
Would you drink milk in your coffee if you could? Or do you prefer it? See, I've never asked you that question.

Mary Alessi:
No, I just. I just like the harsh black.

Steve Alessi:
So you just you like it like that?

Mary Alessi:
Yeah. And I've been a little cheap.

Steve Alessi:
You are. When it comes to coffee, you are.

Mary Alessi:
Cheap in the sense that, you know, I use the pod. So I hit the full pod and then I lift the thing back up and I hit the baby pod.

Steve Alessi:
No, you use the same pod.

Mary Alessi:
Same pod. That's kind of cheap.

Steve Alessi:
That's. That's.

Mary Alessi:
And then it waters down the coffee, so I got to get it back away.

Steve Alessi:
That's not coffee.

Mary Alessi:
Because this office coffee is much better than my home coffee.

Steve Alessi:
This is Nespresso.

Mary Alessi:
Oh, can we do a black coffee? Black coffee. Black rifle coffee. Yeah.

Steve Alessi:
Some people could just make coffee good. Melanie can make coffee good.

Mary Alessi:
Yeah, she's good at it. She's good. And of course, these coffee mugs, the family business with the Alessi coffee mugs, make my coffee taste a whole lot better.

Steve Alessi:
But we should have each other's mugs. I should be drinking from that mug.

Mary Alessi:
That is true.

Steve Alessi:
Because it says original Yappuccino, which is such a great mug. And something that Gabby said and went viral in the podcast about. About dating, I think. And the. A listener called her a yapper or something like that.

Mary Alessi:
Yep.

Steve Alessi:
So instead of being offended, we're like, we'll just brand right off of that.

Mary Alessi:
We're market that.

Steve Alessi:
So we have cup that says original Yappuccino.

Mary Alessi:
Yeah. Your blue is more masculine than my white feminine.

Steve Alessi:
That's another thing. If we go to a restaurant and they serve cups, how many husbands are like mine out there? There's a restaurant we like to eat at at the beach, and they have these eclectic mixed cups. And if they bring you one that's at all girly in your mind, it' girly. You will not drink from it. What is. What are we, 12?

Mary Alessi:
I'm sorry, you will not.

Steve Alessi:
He will literally send it back. I'm sorry, but this cup, a nicer masculine is girly. I will not drink from a girly cup.

Mary Alessi:
Yeah. That you have to drink out of and lift your pinky up. Is not real masculine.

Steve Alessi:
Well, we do have a good conversation today.

Mary Alessi:
We do.

Steve Alessi:
And since need to get some coffee.

Mary Alessi:
And sit down kind of a part two, because you didn't get the weigh in on this before and I think you need to.

Steve Alessi:
You know, I have so much to say. When I heard you were going to go into the podcast booth with Stephanie and Chris on somewhat of this subject. We're going to expand on it today, but I was like giving you a note. Say this and say that and make sure you throw this in there. And we're like, well, let's just get back in the podcast booth because we're talking about this conversation a lot. It comes up a lot.

Mary Alessi:
Yeah.

Steve Alessi:
Not only with our kids working in ministry, but with our staff and then just people in our church that have a lot of concerns. And how do you lean and what should be our mindset and how do we see, how are we supposed to look at people that we look up to as role models in the church or in the media that fall from grace?

Mary Alessi:
Yeah. Mostly the church.

Steve Alessi:
Mostly the church. And how should we see them? But I'm thinking of somebody like even Russell Brand, like, how do we put him in the right place of he was such a secular guy and he finds God and he's still. And now he's out because he's, you know, he's getting arrested and might go to jail because of inappropriate behavior back in the day. How, you know, it's confusing for people. How did they assimilate all of that? Or pastors that are in ministry today, those that fall, or those that preach a word that make you kind of scratch your head, but they're so popular.

Mary Alessi:
Yeah.

Steve Alessi:
And I, I really want to talk about and dissect this part of falling in ministry to does a minister deserve to be reinstated? And if so, is there a safe way to do that?

Mary Alessi:
Yeah.

Steve Alessi:
So I, I want to talk about it.

Mary Alessi:
Well, we do talk about this a lot as a family because it is in the realm of our profession.

Steve Alessi:
Yeah.

Mary Alessi:
So this is what we do. We are pastors. We're full time pastors. It's all we've known is pastoring. Yeah. If we dabbled in business side businesses here and there to help us pay our bills and make investments that we wanted in real estate. But most of our life and our living comes from being in the ministry full time. And in our line of work, they say, you know, we live in glass houses.

Mary Alessi:
Our life at home is no different than our life in the pulpit. And most ministers are judged by what they do in the pulpit and then they're judged by what happens in the home. And it's like they start with the pulpit and then the home turns around and if something doesn't line up there and there's sin and there's a fall from grace, there's adultery, these things, drug abuse. If, if that happens at home and eventually it gets, the word gets out, then you're destroyed in your platform ministry.

Steve Alessi:
Yeah.

Mary Alessi:
So I want to make sure I'm saying that. Right. We're judged first by what Happens in the pulpit, on the stage. That's where people give us the applause, the accolades, repost statements that are made. That's where a lot of these guys just blow up because you're getting snippets of what they do. Excuse me. What they knew on the platform. Right.

Mary Alessi:
But then their personal life, their home life, that's usually second. People don't want to look at that first.

Steve Alessi:
Yes.

Mary Alessi:
They don't judge them there. Right.

Steve Alessi:
Just the gift.

Mary Alessi:
Just the gift.

Steve Alessi:
Yeah.

Mary Alessi:
But then what happens at home could have a greater impact on them. Destroy them. Pull them off the platform.

Steve Alessi:
Yeah.

Mary Alessi:
Because what happens at home really is more important than what happens on that platform.

Steve Alessi:
Absolutely.

Mary Alessi:
And I've always been. This is why we talk about it with our kids. I've always been the person that's tried to say to our kids and our family, guys, they're going to judge us based on what we do at home first.

Steve Alessi:
Yeah.

Mary Alessi:
Let us be that. Let us get the home set. Let us make sure we're doing our stuff there appropriately. Let's make sure. Let's just, you know, we're keeping our marriage together. Let's make sure that as guys, we're not giving in the porn in that private place of our home, that we're not consuming alcohol to be able to go to sleep at night and take pills to try to help us cope with all the stuff at home that we have to deal with. That. That just comes with our profession of life, helping people get through their stuff, carrying the weight of criticism and judgment.

Mary Alessi:
So we've always said we got to make sure the home life is right.

Steve Alessi:
Yeah.

Mary Alessi:
So that's why we talking about this today. Because in our family, this is a big deal.

Steve Alessi:
It is.

Mary Alessi:
It's more important to us that we live right in the home, in the community. Then we preach or sing right on the platform.

Steve Alessi:
Yeah.

Mary Alessi:
And that may not make us popular, but it's going to make us good parents, good husbands, good wives, good grandparents. And our families are going to be as healthy as all get out. And if that's good, oh, my gosh, then we know the church is going to be cool.

Steve Alessi:
Yeah. And if you look at, like, in today's day and age, right now, in our culture, we've had, since COVID a lot of pastors fall. We've had pastors divorce. We saw pastors kill themselves. I mean, hillsong is just not. It's not the hillsong we remember. It still exists. The church is still there.

Steve Alessi:
Pastors aren't there anymore. People that we held in Such high regard that we look to as role models and leading leaders. And now they're just. They're not even leading 100 people. And that's hard for our minds to absorb. And people that were with them, I don't want to say names, but you guys can figure out who we're talking about. Some of the best of the best. There was a group of speakers that were on the speaking circuit for years, going to every conference.

Steve Alessi:
And if you followed church conferences, you saw them speaking, and they'd have their wife and kids in tow. Their wife and kids. But they were living completely double lives. They got caught up in Hollywood. And I mean, the church grew and exploded here in America, and people were standing in line. And we look at that as. This is. This is not a new thing to happen with people that have gifts in their lives.

Steve Alessi:
We've already been through a couple of waves of this in our lifetime. And we go back to in the 80s when huge pastors of notoriety or evangelists of notoriety, they fell, and they fell in a very public way. And so my issue, what I want to talk about in part of this long play podcast, is how are we supposed to look at the fallen man, the fallen leader, and we know what the Bible says, but to assimilate them in our lives where we still appreciate the gift because, say, let's just say it's somebody that you bought their books and you love their ministry and you glean from. They turned out not to be at all who you thought they were. We were talking about this the other day with somebody and they brought up Ravi Zachariah, who is now passed on. And here, this man made such huge strides. People adored this man, his books, his resources. He passes away and they find out he was doing some disgusting things that were borderline unforgivable.

Steve Alessi:
Do we now burn all his books? What do you do with the gift and the resource that that person brought into the world that blessed you, that gave you a standard. But then the man, the person so publicly is exposed where it now taints that resource, but yet it helped you. And that can be very, very confusing. And we know that the enemy is the author of confusion, but this is a conversation that we have in the car. We have it with the kids. We. And it can breed confusion because, yeah, there's absolutes, and sometimes it feels like there's no absolutes because of grace and mercy and God forgives. And do they get a second chance? Do they? Is this it for them? They fall at 40 and that's it.

Steve Alessi:
They'll never be reinstated into a place of prominence. Well, this is the thing that we. That needs to be talked about.

Mary Alessi:
Yeah.

Steve Alessi:
And I know you guys talked about Michael Tate when you were in here. His is the only name I'll say, because if people didn't remember DC Talk Newsboys, he was a huge part of that. And recently it's come out that he lived a double life. Drugs, alcohol. But worse than that, because those are things that you do to damage yourself. He was preying upon other young men. And recently, another woman has come out and said that she was a part of something that he did to drug or whatever. So there's a famous worship leader that also came out yesterday and said, everybody knew.

Steve Alessi:
Everybody knew what Michael Tate was doing. This was. This was not a secret in Nashville. This was not. And I'm like, okay, what. What is going on? How did everybody know? And why are you saying that? You know, so we've all got, like, our opinions. Things should be shouted from the rooftop, be exposed. You're ruined forever.

Steve Alessi:
You. You know, it's. You're. You're just destroyed. Or. Wait a minute. If they're repentant. And it's a.

Steve Alessi:
You know, this is why we're not God. But we've talked about it because we've seen pastors. One is right now on his deathbed. Right now on his deathbed that had the same scenario 40 years ago, very publicly. And we've watched that, and we've observed it from a distance, and he never regained the notoriety. And that wasn't because of man. There's been two or three generations that have been born that don't know his history, but it's like God took his hand off. Other than him being able to do the importance, the fundamentals, which was raise his son, raise his grandson, to be raised up in ministry behind it.

Mary Alessi:
Yeah. So let's. What should then be our. Our response to all that? Because you're saying what happens after.

Steve Alessi:
Yeah.

Mary Alessi:
In the Assemblies of God, the organization, the denomination that we were raised in, and I was licensed and credentialed in. I went to assembly of God College, Southeastern University in Lakeland, Florida. I came out of college and was licensed and ordained with them. And then as years went on, my dad wanted our church to be independent, so we disaffiliated from the Assemblies of God. But that's always been our roots. Now in that organization, if a minister falls, a pastor falls, he'll be taken out of that church. And for one, he'll never go back to that particular Church.

Steve Alessi:
Right.

Mary Alessi:
So they, it's, it's kind of a. They kind of own you.

Steve Alessi:
Yeah.

Mary Alessi:
When you work for them. It's kind of like the Catholic Church and the priests, they call them congregational forms of government. Every congregation has opportunity to choose who they want in their pastorate. So when a pastor is in the local church there, assembly God church, if he falls, they take him out of that church. And then they put them on what is a two year probationary period where they put them through counseling. They'll then put them into another ministry pastor that they'll come in as like an associate to start their restoration. And then after that two year period, they are restored. But they can never go back to that original church.

Mary Alessi:
They could go to another church because the scripture talks about the gifts and the calling of God are without repentance, without reproach. God doesn't look at a person that he's put a gift on and pull that gift off of them, that anointing off of them all because of their sin. We all have sinned, come short of the glory of God, so God doesn't pull it away from us. So. But then that minister can go on and minister somewhere else, which I think the best pattern is kind of that.

Steve Alessi:
Yeah.

Mary Alessi:
And maybe it's just because we were raised in it, I'm not sure. But I think it's a good pattern because for one, they, they remove you from the church that you were pastoring in because it's impossible for people, I'm sorry, it's just impossible for them to ever hold you in the high esteem that they once did when they found out that you sin.

Steve Alessi:
Right.

Mary Alessi:
And we're sorry for that.

Steve Alessi:
Right.

Mary Alessi:
It may not be right. Meaning that people could look at that and says, well, you're judging that person that fell. Well, we bring that on ourselves in our profession, the glass house. We bring it on ourselves that if we're going to sin like that, then there will be forever on our lives a certain aspect of judgment. And that's just how life is. It's not God.

Steve Alessi:
Right.

Mary Alessi:
It's. It's not that people, Christians are not being Christianly. It's just what it is.

Steve Alessi:
Right.

Mary Alessi:
So what they'll do is they'll pull them out, get them restored, put them in another area of ministry, and then they'll bring in another pastor to that congregation to now help the congregation heal.

Steve Alessi:
Yeah.

Mary Alessi:
Because the congregation has just been violated. Their trust has just been stepped on and, and now they don't have that. Some will leave that church.

Steve Alessi:
Some believe the faith.

Mary Alessi:
Some will leave the faith. So now we've got to go in and help heal the church and the people of the church and the staff that worked alongside of this person. Most likely in a scenario like that, there's going to be rapid turnover, staff's going to be fired or staff is going to quit. The local church financially, the local church is going to suffer. Spiritually, the local church is going to suffer. The next pastor stepping into that role has a burden that probably is too big for him to bear, and he's going to be short term most of the time.

Steve Alessi:
It's like a rebound pastor. Yeah.

Mary Alessi:
Until the church can get its legs about them and start to trust and move forward. We see that happening right now with Gateway Church. Robert Morris, a new pastor stepping in, a gentleman from the east coast as his own church. But now he's been hired by them. I think to myself, you're talking about a church that was close to 30,000 people. But because of the failure, the fall of the pastor early on, that now has come out to. To hurt him. The churches have to lay off hundreds of employees financially.

Mary Alessi:
They're in a bind. And the members of the church actually sued the leadership of the church.

Steve Alessi:
Okay, so it's funny that you were going to bring that up, because I was thinking how when you read that to me, that there were people in the church that are coming back asking for their tithes back. And I said, how can you do that? You give the tithes to the kingdom, to the Lord.

Mary Alessi:
And you said, well, because the pastor made a declaration. Robert Morris stood up and said in front of his church, if you tithe and it doesn't work for you after a year.

Steve Alessi:
Yeah.

Mary Alessi:
If you don't see the fruit of it, then come back, we'll give you back your money.

Steve Alessi:
Right.

Mary Alessi:
So they more or less after that happened, even though it was years later, people said the church was acting in an unfaithful manner with the finances, so we want our money back. And so they ended up going through a lawsuit. Nothing was legal, binding. They're in the middle of a lawsuit.

Steve Alessi:
Yeah.

Mary Alessi:
All of that to show when the leader falls, there's chaos. The scriptural reference to it is, when you strike the shepherd, the sheep will flee. The sheep run from the protection of the shepherd, and where they're fed and nourished and taken care of, now they're running and they're lost and there's confusion and there's hurt. So from my perspective, from my seat, I know I'm saying this and I Could box myself in. I know that meaning if I ever fall, I have to eat my words, which is quite motivating, quite frankly, to keep me from falling. But the point there is where people will look at the leader and say, oh, poor guy, let's restore him. The shepherd in me says, the poor sheep.

Steve Alessi:
Yeah.

Mary Alessi:
How are they hurt? How are they surviving?

Steve Alessi:
That's right.

Mary Alessi:
How do we get them healed?

Steve Alessi:
Well, and I think that there's a lot of people in ministry or in music, in the worship industry that aren't thinking about the sheep. And we've seen that for years and years and years because we always want to find whose feet do we lay this at for fault? Whose fault is it that this person we revered, we loved, is now fallen? I can't put you back on the pedestal you fell off. Whether it's a singer, worship leader, your favorite, whatever, evangelist, whatever pastor. So for some people, it's a sports figure. Could be even in the world. I can't put you back up cause you fell off. And it, it's very, not only confusing, but it angers us that the people we looked up to and we admired and really held a standard for who we either wanted to be or wanted to be. Like, now we can't.

Steve Alessi:
We gotta find somebody else. We gotta go find another shepherd. We need to find somebody else that pours into us. And what do we do with all of that? And why is that allowed to happen? And why are. Why are people who are in positions of prominence, why is God letting that happen? Why aren't they listening to God? Why isn't he stopping it? Why isn't God protecting the sheep? You know, I've asked all those questions and I. I mean, if I'm just going to be honest with you, because you and I aren't the typical pastor and pastor's wife where we don't say the truth. A lot of pastors, they stay in the. The plastic bubble of, oh, there's ministry talk and then there's real talk.

Steve Alessi:
We. We are who we are. Okay, but I don't understand. I've never understood why God would not intervene. But what God does is he does remove his hand. And we might not see it, we might be the last to see it. But usually when there's a person in ministry or person that's in prominence, whether again, worship, teaching, leading, pastoring, the family already knows something's off. The first ones that know is that wife, because it's usually the men.

Steve Alessi:
I don't know many women that have done this, but the Wife knows she sounded the alarm. Nobody's listened. The kids are showing it. The fruit is there. I can be honest about this too. Whenever I see a pastor's wife that overly fans the gift in her husband in a public way, that always scares me. That always scares me.

Mary Alessi:
Say that more.

Steve Alessi:
He's okay. So. Okay, so we all like a prominent singer or we all like a prominent songwriter. We all love a prominent speaker. Right. And they're known for that gift. And then instead of their wife either just kind of being there and. And you can sense that she keeps him grounded.

Steve Alessi:
She fans the flame of his fabulousness too.

Mary Alessi:
Yeah.

Steve Alessi:
He's just so wonderful. Like, she worships him along with everyone else. That is a very dangerous sign.

Mary Alessi:
Yeah.

Steve Alessi:
Cuz that there ain't no way that's real.

Mary Alessi:
Yeah.

Steve Alessi:
She's a wife first. That's just baloney.

Mary Alessi:
So. So what you're saying is she. She lets his dirty laundry just kind.

Steve Alessi:
Of sit out, stay dirty, and it paid. In some ways, he's human.

Mary Alessi:
Put him on this stinking pedestal. Not the sin. I'm not talking. We're not talking about the sin.

Steve Alessi:
Right.

Mary Alessi:
We're not saying that she's over there hiding.

Steve Alessi:
No.

Mary Alessi:
But we're just saying let him be the man. Let people know that he's a man. You don't have to be his fan. Be his wife.

Steve Alessi:
That's right. And one thing, don't be his fan.

Mary Alessi:
Yeah.

Steve Alessi:
Remind everybody he's just a man.

Mary Alessi:
There you go. Don't be his fan. Just. Yes, he's a man. And that's important because even as you and I go about our lives, you don't have a problem throwing me under the bus. No, I don't have a problem throwing you. Laying you down.

Steve Alessi:
In front of the bus. I threw you under it. Maybe the wheels didn't hit you. You threw me in front of you.

Mary Alessi:
All of that to say that that lets people see the humanity.

Steve Alessi:
Well, it does. And first of all, we don't do that for people.

Mary Alessi:
Yeah.

Steve Alessi:
I don't want people to misunderstand. We don't live for an audience.

Mary Alessi:
No.

Steve Alessi:
We've never been those people. We were raised in this thing. We see the dangers of that. That's how you lose your children. People want to say, how do you have all four kids working with you? Oh, what did you do? We didn't fake.

Mary Alessi:
Yeah.

Steve Alessi:
We didn't pretend. And can I tell you the same standard that we hold pastors to? We hold people to and we tell people. Hold us to that standard. You know how many Times, you said from the platform since day one of our church, and we're going on 27 years. Hey, if I fall, leave.

Mary Alessi:
Yeah.

Steve Alessi:
If you see things that are immoral and off, leave. I'm giving you permission to leave. Now. If you don't love the way we manage and we sing six songs instead of four, or it's too cold in the building, or I preach for an hour and you don't like that, that's just management. You can't leave. If we're in. Yeah, like spirit, don't leave for those reasons. But immorally, you see something that's off, you need to leave this church, which.

Mary Alessi:
When you hold yourself to a standard.

Steve Alessi:
Exactly.

Mary Alessi:
You expect others to reach that same standard, which is why the disappointment occurs with the people, the fans.

Steve Alessi:
Right.

Mary Alessi:
When a person does not live up to their end of it. So let's go back to that part. How should we respond to the person that has fallen? Well, gotten away.

Steve Alessi:
Can we back up a little bit?

Mary Alessi:
Okay.

Steve Alessi:
We have such public exposure of our famous people in the church now. We see them constantly on social media, pictures of them, quite frankly. Some of them, even tabloids have picked up because of their association with famous people in the world. Okay. So because we've seen pastors really yoke up with people in the world, famous people, we would see things. We would see pictures on magazine covers or in magazines or on social media on TikTok or whatever of our favorite pastor and go, oh, that's interesting. Is that. Okay.

Steve Alessi:
And here's a. Here's a downside. That pastor is showing his midriff and he's doing what the world does. Okay. And now all of a sudden you have all these worship leaders that are doing the same thing. Well, because he did it. Why can't I?

Mary Alessi:
Yeah.

Steve Alessi:
And now we look like the bad guy. The Christians take the hit. Oh, the church is the worst. I've heard that so many times on social media. Christians are going to come for you, and they're the worst. When people fall, there's. The church is the most judgmental. Hold on a minute.

Steve Alessi:
Some people are just trying to keep a standard.

Mary Alessi:
Yeah.

Steve Alessi:
Isn't that what we're called to do? So we're judgmental now.

Mary Alessi:
Yeah.

Steve Alessi:
Now we're not called to sin. When we see sin, when we see somebody in sin, it doesn't give us a right to sin, too.

Mary Alessi:
Yeah.

Steve Alessi:
But holding accountable or calling it out and going, wait a minute, that's bananas.

Mary Alessi:
Yeah.

Steve Alessi:
We're called to come out of the world. I can't Even say that. Now, that's being judgmental.

Mary Alessi:
Yeah. No, I. Here's. I can tell you where I'll probably get in trouble for making this statement. I don't understand some of these pastors today who think they have to go and do a fashion shoot.

Steve Alessi:
Oh, Lord Jesus, help us, God.

Mary Alessi:
You know, there's one I saw the other day of some guy that's out there now. He's evidently a hothead and really good at the top of his world. But him and his wife, to celebrate their Anna wedding anniversary, went to Paris and they pulled off this kind of wedding shoot. I mean, this fashion shoot.

Steve Alessi:
Yeah.

Mary Alessi:
It's like, dude, you're a pastor.

Steve Alessi:
I know.

Mary Alessi:
Be a pastor.

Steve Alessi:
Yeah.

Mary Alessi:
Why do you got to act like you're Hollywood and you're going to go spend all that money? Whether it's your money or the church's money, it doesn't matter. Your money. You're going to spend all that money to put together a fashion shoot of you and your spouse to celebrate your marriage, which I think is beautiful. But you haven't been married that long, and now you're out there doing that. You know, what you've just done is you set yourself up to be one, Criticized. Two, people going to take hits at you, they're going to shoot at you, try to knock you down. And three, when, if you. You're going to be so scrutinized that if you do anything out of line.

Steve Alessi:
Yeah.

Mary Alessi:
They're going to sit back and say, yeah, you see, you had zero wisdom. They're going to judge you harshly. And that pedestal you have put yourself up on, it's going to come crashing down.

Steve Alessi:
And in. In. In the world of wisdom. We've been here before, we've seen this stuff before, and. And the truth is, I can name.

Mary Alessi:
A half dozen of them right now. Can I name them? Ap? No, no. Alan says don't name them. Actually, he says, do what you want. No, I don't want to do that. But there's like a half dozen of them that I'm not judging. I'm just looking at the fruit.

Steve Alessi:
Yeah.

Mary Alessi:
And I'm telling you, it doesn't look good in the future.

Steve Alessi:
No. The sirens are going off.

Mary Alessi:
We've seen this too many times.

Steve Alessi:
We've seen it over and over and over again. It's a recipe for disaster. Because when you're overcompensating now, you got to get married on an island and bring a famous magazine photographer. Fact.

Mary Alessi:
Yeah.

Steve Alessi:
Okay. It's like when Shakespeare said, I think thou does Protest too much. All right. That's a saying. It's a brilliant saying. It goes in reverse, I think. Thou doth too much fanfare and celebration. What is that about?

Mary Alessi:
It's like they used to say about guys with big trucks. He's overcompensating for something and I got a truck.

Steve Alessi:
Yeah.

Mary Alessi:
What. What's the deal? Yeah.

Steve Alessi:
So hold on a second. Because this is where the younger generation, even our kids, will get frustrated with us. And we try to be very cautious because we don't want to add to the discouragement or the disillusionment when men fall and men fail at the same time. We've always wanted our young kids, and not just our own children, but the young people that are around us, to use wisdom and discernment and know how to manage that wisdom and discernment. When you see something in the world, they say, if you see something, say something. Right. But in the kingdom, if you see something, you need to pray and not be so vocal.

Mary Alessi:
Yeah. And I think it's okay to put your discernment up. You better have discernment. You have to.

Steve Alessi:
You have to.

Mary Alessi:
Part of your spirit, part of what's on the inside of you that allows you to make right choices and wrong choices is something from discernment.

Steve Alessi:
Right.

Mary Alessi:
It is you. You can discern right and wrong. And even though it may not look that way, something on the inside of you says that's just not right.

Steve Alessi:
Yeah.

Mary Alessi:
What I'm afraid we've got a generation of people doing is they just judge everything based on what a person says.

Steve Alessi:
Yeah.

Mary Alessi:
And talk is cheap. You may not like it. General young generation. Because everything on social media is talking about.

Steve Alessi:
Right.

Mary Alessi:
But talk is cheap.

Steve Alessi:
Right.

Mary Alessi:
Meaning you can say anything you want. Doesn't cost you anything, but try to walk it out. When you have to walk out your talk, that's when it starts costing you something.

Steve Alessi:
Yeah.

Mary Alessi:
That's when there's sacrifice.

Steve Alessi:
That's right. That's when you got to live what you preach.

Mary Alessi:
So I have this analogy, this little image in my mind. If I'm young, a young person today, if I go back and I'm Steve Alessi in my 20s, and I'm looking at somebody to help lead me. Yes. I have a pastor in my life, which is very important.

Steve Alessi:
Right.

Mary Alessi:
I should be looking at them pretty much first.

Steve Alessi:
Yeah.

Mary Alessi:
But then I know there's other influences that are going to help me in other areas of my life. I'm going to be looking to them. Well, what I need to be doing is I. I Can either look for the architect. So take a building, for instance. Before you can have a building, somebody's got to design it.

Steve Alessi:
Yeah.

Mary Alessi:
That designer is the architect. That designer is going to be able to draw it. It's going to look beautiful. It's going to get your attention. You're going to be awed by it. They're going to put some color to it. They're going to put a 3D deal together for you. It's what the project should look like if you build the building.

Steve Alessi:
Yeah.

Mary Alessi:
This is what it's going to look like.

Steve Alessi:
Yep.

Mary Alessi:
And we've got a lot of young people today that are on social media that a lot of other young people are hitching their wagons to saying, wow, that person knows how to do it.

Steve Alessi:
Right.

Mary Alessi:
But those people are telling you how to do it. They're drawing the picture. They're the architect.

Steve Alessi:
Yeah.

Mary Alessi:
And there's a room for an architect in your life that can help you build a vision for the future. But what you also need in your life is the builder.

Steve Alessi:
Yeah.

Mary Alessi:
The builder is the one that takes the architectural plans and now fleshes it out.

Steve Alessi:
Yeah.

Mary Alessi:
And it's going to be on the builder to make sure what the architect drew is actually built.

Steve Alessi:
Yeah.

Mary Alessi:
To look exactly the same way. I'm going to give more of my attention to the builder.

Steve Alessi:
That's so good.

Mary Alessi:
Not the architect.

Steve Alessi:
That's right.

Mary Alessi:
I need the architect to help me build the vision for my future.

Steve Alessi:
Yeah.

Mary Alessi:
But I want to know the nuts and bolts guy. I want to know the guy that knows how to put steel down in the foundation, that knows how to work hard and get in there and dig up the earth.

Steve Alessi:
Yeah.

Mary Alessi:
Get a little bloody, get a little dirty. Make the sacrifice. Have to. To make sure he's ready for the concrete that's going to be poured.

Steve Alessi:
Yeah.

Mary Alessi:
I. I want that guy. I'm going to follow that guy because that guy's paid the price. That guy knows what he's doing. That guy, when it's all said and done, can point to the building that he's built. So you've got a lot of young architects that are telling you how to be happy in your marriage, but they haven't built a marriage yet.

Steve Alessi:
So.

Mary Alessi:
Good. They're only three to five years in.

Steve Alessi:
Yeah. And let's not get marriage advice from them.

Mary Alessi:
No, you're not. You're. You're not. You may see it and say, you know, one day I want my marriage to look like that.

Steve Alessi:
Yeah.

Mary Alessi:
But I'm not going to listen necessarily how they. To Them on how to do it because they haven't given me a finished product. They're only five years in. Ten years in. Come on. You better look to somebody that's about 20 or 30 years in, that's been able to go through all the seasons of life with their kids, having kids, raising kids, then get exiting, getting the kids out the door. Are they still married in their emptiness syndrome years? Are they still enjoying life? Do they look like they care for one another? Do they care? They look like they love one another. See, that's the builder I want to know.

Mary Alessi:
The person that knows how to run the pipe, right, that, that knows how to pull the wire through the pipe and set up the electric. So that beautiful light that looks so great in the lobby, that gets your attention.

Steve Alessi:
Yeah.

Mary Alessi:
Is actually working when you flip a switch.

Steve Alessi:
Exactly.

Mary Alessi:
Tell me how to do it, buddy.

Steve Alessi:
Well, I love this analogy because I think it really helps all of us, no matter what age group we're in, know how to look at people of influence. Because let's not underestimate that word. Influence. That's the word for pastors, worship leaders, famous people, people on social media. They all influence us. They move the needle in our lives. They can create vision. And if we're only looking at architects, people that are dreamers, that can draw up beautiful plans, but they're not the ones that are showing up every morning at 6am and getting the workers out there.

Steve Alessi:
And the builders are also the ones that will give you a realistic finish time. The architect's gonna go, oh, this is, I know this is complicated, but you could get this done in a year. You go to a builder that's done it before and they're like, no way. This is a three year project, so don't get disillusioned. If we're not done in a year, this is gonna take longer than you think. Practical influence is important. Who you listen to, who impacts your life, who moves the needle, who helps you start creating a vision, those voices that's on us as people. Whether you're a Christian or not, it is on us who you let speak into your life, who empowers you, who impacts you, who influences you so that when they are human beings and they fall, which they do because they're human, it's not as much of a disappointment or disillusioning to you because you're not putting all your focus and all of it's not built around the architect.

Steve Alessi:
The one that makes it look good, the one that has the pop up shop. Okay, listen, dude, you Just got here. And I love your enthusiasm and I love what you're saying, but Wisdom says, let's watch a little bit longer. And not only that, looking at the architect of something is also in line with being drawn into somebody who might be a speaker, a singer. That's very emotional, almost too emotional. Like, they just. Everything is big and magnanimous instead of just being a real person. Those are the pitfalls.

Steve Alessi:
Just be mindful for that. I mean, right now we have somebody who is really making a huge impact in the body of Christ, and they came through social media. I love the message, but I'm just waiting to see.

Mary Alessi:
Yeah.

Steve Alessi:
Because I do see some things that are reminiscent of things I've seen in the past. That makes me go, oh, come on, man. If I had your phone number, I wish I could call you and go, everything's great. Don't do that right there. Yeah, stop that right there. That is giving everybody cold chills. That has been down this road before. It's a familiarity.

Steve Alessi:
We've seen it. And here's what the Bible does say. Pride in all its forms. It doesn't come before a setback. It doesn't come before a disagreement. Pride doesn't come before anything other than a fall. A fall. And when we realize, when we see pride and we've been familiar with pride, but yet we're following this person that's painting this beautiful picture, and we love it.

Steve Alessi:
And we're going, I think I like their religion. I think I like their messaging. I think I like that what they're building. And it's causing us to question, why doesn't my pastor preach that way? And why don't we do that? And why aren't we on board with that? This new. Okay, they just got here. Hold on.

Mary Alessi:
It's just the architect.

Steve Alessi:
It's just the architect. Go ask the builder in your life. What do you think about that? Do you know our moms? Your mom's 87, my mom's 84. And my mother, there was someone. She's been around ministry. They both their whole lives, from the time they were about 18. They've seen it. They've been around famous pastors.

Steve Alessi:
They are pastors, wives that have been in the thick of it of the most famous pastors of their days, Right?

Mary Alessi:
Yep.

Steve Alessi:
In their churches, in their homes, around their ministries. Not front row, in behind the scenes. Our moms have been exposed to a lot, so they've seen it. They've seen the many rise and falls, even their own husbands. Okay, so they've Been through it.

Mary Alessi:
Right.

Steve Alessi:
And there was someone particularly that we all just loved, the younger generation loved. And my mom just would not let it go. I'm not feeling it. They're sweet. I appreciate them. I'm praying for them. But you need to be careful. You need to be careful.

Steve Alessi:
Don't put your eggs in one basket. And I got so defensive even at this season of my life. Mom, you can't let those old things come up and affect you. Don't be judgmental. I'm not. I'm just telling you what I see. Recently we find out. I haven't even told her yet.

Steve Alessi:
Dang it. She was right. That wasn't being judgmental. That was being wise. And she's built enough. And she has seen the sustainability of ministry, what sustains it and what kills it.

Mary Alessi:
Yeah.

Steve Alessi:
And you can't. You can't bless a lot of people in your homes. A mess.

Mary Alessi:
Yeah.

Steve Alessi:
You just can't. Because the real. The reality is there are people that are just trying to build their own lives.

Mary Alessi:
Yeah, babe. You know, when you were talking earlier, our girl. Girls were talking about this. This speaker that you were referencing a minute ago. And I was all good with this person until I heard my kids say something. And the statement that they shared with me was this person made a comment about why they wear certain clothing.

Steve Alessi:
Yeah.

Mary Alessi:
And the whole thing was that they wear this particular type of clothing, which is just. They wear black clothing. It's not dressing up or anything like that. Because the Lord told them they had a ministry for many years, but that ministry didn't really grow. It was stagnant. And then when the Lord spoke to him, the Lord told him something about his clothing. The moment she said that, I'm like, this dude's whack.

Steve Alessi:
Oh, nobody's going to know what you're talking about. Everybody's going to know who you're talking.

Mary Alessi:
About, because the verdict's still out.

Steve Alessi:
Yeah.

Mary Alessi:
My point, there is. Anytime you got to make something about you.

Steve Alessi:
Right. Okay.

Mary Alessi:
So the Lord spoke to you about your clothing. Keep that to yourself.

Steve Alessi:
I agree. So there's a. There are times when speakers that get. I don't want to use. Use the word notorious, but they get famous fast. Right. It is not a judgment call to say that. Sometimes they speak out of turn and they regret that, and they fix that.

Steve Alessi:
Where we get nervous is when we hear it and we go, oh. And it's not fixed. It's not something that they go, you know, that was a stupid thing to say.

Mary Alessi:
Well, they said they build their Platform on it.

Steve Alessi:
They build a platform on it, and then they're untouchable. And you go to meet them, and they're just so holy, they can't be touched. And they can't. I'm in the zone, and I'm going to speak and the Holy Spirit's going to hit me. Okay, dude, come on, knock that off.

Mary Alessi:
You want to make a statement about your clothing. Like you're just an ordinary guy, and you're.

Steve Alessi:
You're right.

Mary Alessi:
You're the Bill Belichick of. Of. Of ministry. You're wearing hoodies and all this up there. Instead of representing the gospel in a way that doesn't cause people to have to look at your clothing. Okay, but. But you want to represent the message. Okay, go up and represent.

Mary Alessi:
Don't overdo it. Don't underdo it. All right, let me finish.

Steve Alessi:
I'm sorry.

Mary Alessi:
And then. And then you're going to make it now about something God told you, as simple as that.

Steve Alessi:
Right. That you're like a.

Mary Alessi:
And then you show up.

Steve Alessi:
Yeah.

Mary Alessi:
And you're untouchable. You don't talk to anybody.

Steve Alessi:
Yeah, I don't.

Mary Alessi:
Now, you want to be a figure, but you on the platform, you want your clothes to make you like an ordinary person.

Steve Alessi:
Right.

Mary Alessi:
But yet you show up to an event in the green room in the back, and you're wanting to be treated like you're an extraordinary person.

Steve Alessi:
Right.

Mary Alessi:
That's the stuff that's kind of. Wow, dude, you didn't really process all of that.

Steve Alessi:
That's the point.

Mary Alessi:
Don't mention that about. Don't make it something that it shouldn't be. Your clothing, the way you underdress, whatever. Don't make it about. God told me this.

Steve Alessi:
Because it doesn't exude the humility you think it does. Sometimes pastors, especially young pastors, think they have to say all those things they don't realize. Those of the old dogs in the room that have been doing this a long time go, what are you compensating for? Please don't do that. You. So bless me. Your word, your message is so right now, we need it. And I want to. We got a few more minutes.

Steve Alessi:
I want to talk about that part of it, because that's another conversation we've been having. But they. Those little things just cause us to go, hold on a minute. We still love the word. We're blessed by it, but we don't put all our eggs into one basket. And we use the spirit of discernment when we hear certain things that make us Go, hmm. We're not going to judge them or say, don't listen to them, put an X on them. That's not.

Steve Alessi:
That's not what we're doing either. We're just saying don't put them in a position of high influence. They're. They're a message. They're a voice, okay? So that same person who I personally am thankful for, okay. And I see those things and like I said, I wish I had their number and I could call them and go, please stop that. You don't need all that. But that's not my position.

Steve Alessi:
So hopefully the Holy Spirit speaks to them and they kind of shave that off. Because so much of what they're saying is powerful and needed. However, the argument has been because it's a hellfire and brimstone message, it is an anti sin. It is in your face. It's lines of people coming to the church again, which I think is awesome. Especially in the city he's in. And he's speaking to an audience that needs to hear that. He is.

Steve Alessi:
So sometimes where we get that dissonance, where we're like, conflicted, we don't understand. This thought came to me the other day. We've raised four kids, right? We've raised them in our home with discipline, with strong discipline, a strong dad and a strong mom. We have different areas where we're strong. If we had had one rebellious kid, the rules apply to everybody in our home. If we had had one rebellious kid that was hurting the family, doing drugs, running around, not coming in, putting themselves in danger, affected the family, we wouldn't sit down and start setting new rules for the lowest common denominator in our home. That message would be for that kid, because that's what that kid needs to hear. The other three would be, you don't need this.

Steve Alessi:
You're obeying, you're living. Right. You don't need to hear this message because you're responding based on principle. This black sheep needs to get clobbered. And we're setting a completely different set of circumstances. They're not going anywhere. You don't have to come until 11:30. Cause you've been good.

Steve Alessi:
Right? And I look at that from the same perspective of the those of us that he who has an ear, let him hear. Okay? The sheep. That pastor is talking to goats.

Mary Alessi:
Hmm.

Steve Alessi:
And he needs to talk to goats like that. But I'm not a goat.

Mary Alessi:
Yeah.

Steve Alessi:
So I appreciate the message, but I'm not gonna feast on it. Because if I'm not careful, my doctrine will Start changing, and I might get a little bit more hardline. So let the goat shepherd lead the goats. Preach to the goats that are out of the will of the Father, and they're not listening, and they're in sin, and they're living with their sin, and they're coming to church living with their sin. We need the John the Baptist. Yeah, okay. We need that voice. But that's not my shepherd.

Steve Alessi:
I don't have a steady diet of that.

Mary Alessi:
Yeah.

Steve Alessi:
Now, I like a shepherd that says to me, you're doing it right. Just keep doing it. Keep serving. Keep coming. You're doing it. You're following the principles of God's word. You're doing fine. I like that message, but for the goats, I'm not wondering why my pastor's not preaching that message.

Steve Alessi:
Because we don't have a church filled with goats, and we're not trying to draw a bunch of goats. There are. God raises up the mouthpiece for what the people need to hear. I'm not a goat. So when you're a sheep and you're feasting on a message for goats, that's not your food, and it can cause confusion. And we're watching it happen right now. We're seeing goat herders be brought into certain environments where, if they don't know, this is not my field, I'm gonna blow this up. I know exactly where I'm called.

Steve Alessi:
That's where I pray for these leaders and these pastors and these people of influence, and there's a lot of them out there. And I love what's happening, even in the black church world. I love that because there's a lot of calling out and there's a lot of young theologians. But then now they start fighting amongst themselves and wielding scripture verses against each other.

Mary Alessi:
Yep.

Steve Alessi:
Like it's lasers. Yeah, but they're going to work all that out. They'll have to work all that with time and maturity. Here's the thing. As long as they stay married, they stay faithful to God. They stay in the fight. They don't have moral falls. All those little things will get worked out with time and wisdom and discernment if they stay humble.

Steve Alessi:
But that's for the leader, but for the listener. I have to know who I am, and I'm tender. My heart is pure. I'm listening to the voice of God, and I want to be discerning. I don't want to live in confusion, and I don't want my kids to live in confusion.

Mary Alessi:
Well, that's all good. I like your analogy. Not as much as I like my builder.

Steve Alessi:
No, yours was better. You're doing, but mine was good.

Mary Alessi:
Goat herder. I haven't heard about that. A goater. That's cool on that. Mayor, go back to what we originally were saying in the sense that how should we respond after a person has fallen?

Steve Alessi:
Yeah.

Mary Alessi:
Do we give them the grace to get right back in the game and, you know, we in our mind just go back to listening and receiving them again? Or do we say, you know what? And I'm more of this one. I'm more of. Go ahead, you've fallen. You get out of ministry for a bit. You go get healed. I like two years. That's good.

Steve Alessi:
Young in ministry early on. Okay. Or at all.

Mary Alessi:
At all. If you got to get out two years. If the ministry is good to you, it's value. If you hold it in the highest esteem and you value it.

Steve Alessi:
So can we say, though really quick, say a young pastor is drinking, he needs to take two years off if he has an emotional relationship with a woman in his church or a man. So these are some of the issues of the degrees of deception and sin.

Mary Alessi:
Yeah. Where there is public sin, it's recognized as public sin. It's private, but it's not public. Get out of the ministry for two years. Discipline, I mean, disappear. Stay off of social media. Don't tell us how great your marriage is now.

Steve Alessi:
Please don't do that.

Mary Alessi:
Prove it first.

Steve Alessi:
Yeah. Don't get a podcast.

Mary Alessi:
Just don't get the podcast. Okay.

Steve Alessi:
Thank you.

Mary Alessi:
Get away.

Steve Alessi:
Yep.

Mary Alessi:
Let the body heal. Yes, the body of Christ heal. Let him pray for you, lift you back up. Then if you're going to come back in ministry, maybe you should come back. I'm of the opinion you should come back in a different area of ministry, different role. Different role. If you were a pastor, then I'm not sure going back to being the senior pastor is going to help you. No, I think you, you, you have lost the privilege of being in that position because you've lost the respect of the people and your sin.

Mary Alessi:
I hate to say it will forever follow you. Yeah, it's terrible.

Steve Alessi:
It is.

Mary Alessi:
Especially with social media today. People won't let you forget it.

Steve Alessi:
Yeah.

Mary Alessi:
And so don't put yourself and your family back in that mess. Don't put the body of Christ in that. If you pastored at one time, come back and be an associate, serve another pastor to allow your ministry gifts to bless that particular body. So if you plan on that, because that's your only direction to be able to use your gift. Use it there because that God still needs that gift. And it could bless some people or you. The hard to call is you step out of ministry all together and you now start using your gifts in other areas.

Steve Alessi:
Right.

Mary Alessi:
Maybe you open up a counseling center to help counsel others that have gone through things that you went through.

Steve Alessi:
Sure.

Mary Alessi:
But now your ministry is behind the scenes. No public. Not in front of people. You're behind. You're in closed meetings with people, behind the closed doors with them. Or you use that gift into the. In the secular realm. If you are a great speaker on the platform, use that gift in the secular realm.

Mary Alessi:
Just. Just don't put yourself back in a position where people are going to ever be hurt again.

Steve Alessi:
Right.

Mary Alessi:
What's the heart of the person that receives from them? I think one, if they've fallen, you got to pray for them. I don't. I think their fruit, you know, a man buys fruit, their fruit causes you to sit back and say and make a judgment call, discern. Do I want to follow that person again to that level? I think it's wisdom to say, I'm not sure. Yeah, let me just pray. Pray for them and keep it at that. You can support them. The worst thing is that you would ever gossip about them.

Mary Alessi:
You don't want to do that.

Steve Alessi:
Their sin can't cause you to sin.

Mary Alessi:
There you go. You don't make that judgment call, but you're smart to be able to keep boundaries up.

Steve Alessi:
Yeah.

Mary Alessi:
Why did you hold them in such high esteem?

Steve Alessi:
Yeah.

Mary Alessi:
What was it that drew you to them? What allowed you. If you saw amber warning lights, why didn't you stop and pull back? Why did you hold them? Put them on the pedestal.

Steve Alessi:
The pedestal.

Mary Alessi:
When they did fall, it was such a great fall.

Steve Alessi:
That's right.

Mary Alessi:
That's on the part of the follower. The thing you cannot do, can't judge them. And you cannot think to yourself, I'll never let another leader influence me like that again. You can't do that because the Lord uses leaders to come alongside of you, with you, before you, to help lead you into the right place. Now, I think a pastor does that at the local level. I think that's God's plan, is to use a local pastor. We've got more people today. Statistics are proving more people today don't visit or commit to just one church.

Mary Alessi:
They'll commit to two churches.

Steve Alessi:
Sure.

Mary Alessi:
And that's not good because now you've got two shepherds.

Steve Alessi:
Right.

Mary Alessi:
And maybe they're telling you different things.

Steve Alessi:
That's right.

Mary Alessi:
You Got to be willing to have a shepherd. That shepherd is going to challenge you sometimes. That shepherd is going to bless you, sometimes, comfort you sometimes. That's what the shepherd does. You got to have a shepherd. You got to have a shepherd. A shepherd. You can't have a bunch of them.

Mary Alessi:
And you can't supplement a shepherd for a business coach or a coach.

Steve Alessi:
Right.

Mary Alessi:
A coach does not become your shepherd. You can't give ear more to a secular coach or a spiritual coach than you give the pastor the shepherd in your life. And you can't pull off and pull away just because you don't like something the shepherd said to you or you heard in a sermon or a podcast. You can't all of a sudden ditch that relationship or else nobody's going to be able to come into your life and help call you to higher levels, call things out in you so you can be called up. So we live in a funny world.

Steve Alessi:
Yeah.

Mary Alessi:
You're going to have the highs and the lows and you're going to have people that you honor and follow. And I promise you those. There's better, more good shepherds out there.

Steve Alessi:
There are.

Mary Alessi:
That are faithful in their post, faithful to their church, faithful to their wife, faithful to their kids. There's more of those out there than the ones that are falling.

Steve Alessi:
That's right.

Mary Alessi:
We just happen to hear the ones. Hear about the ones falling because sometimes we like bad news. Isn't that terrible?

Steve Alessi:
We do. And I would say this for my part. I think when you have somebody that you really appreciate and they're speaking into your life and you like what they're saying and it resonates with you, just take it for that. That doesn't mean they're your new leader.

Mary Alessi:
Yeah.

Steve Alessi:
Just take the good information and the things that you pick up and ask God to give you discernment and wisdom to make sure people that are speaking into your life are properly vetted. And we're not trying to put X's on people, cancel out voices. That's not what we're doing. We're praying for people. We're all on this journey together. We're all fallen. You've said things we wish you hadn't said. Lord knows I've said things I wish I hadn't said with a microphone in my hand.

Steve Alessi:
This is a tough job. We probably said 10 things today we're gonna regret. But that's just what happens when you are. You didn't get called to ministry. You got put out there in front of an audience. So now everything that you say can and will be used against you, and everything that you do can and will be used against you. So leaders need to know that. And when they fall, own it.

Steve Alessi:
Own it. Don't blame the people you did this.

Mary Alessi:
That's crazy.

Steve Alessi:
You said yes to the audience. Boy, you loved it when they were all patting you on the back, lining up to sign your. Get your. Their book signed, but then you don't want to get crucified. Well, that's not how this works. But for the people, the listener. Pray for those. Those that are in the public view.

Mary Alessi:
Yeah.

Steve Alessi:
Pray that the enemy doesn't come in and do what he wants to do, which so often he has access and does.

Mary Alessi:
Yep.

Steve Alessi:
And I want to say this especially for worship leaders. I wish there was a system out there that when a worship leader falls, somebody who's not a pastor, but in music, that there is a way for us to still bring them back into that position if they're humble and they want to, but with guardrails and people around them that won't let them fall back into the same old patterns that they submit themselves to for a period of time. Because we have this for pastors. We do and we don't. But even in the Christian world, you know, worship leaders that divorce their wives and then remarry someone else so publicly, and we're all crushed and hurt, and, you know, you just feel so betrayed. You know, how could you do this? You're my favorite worship leader, and you're married to somebody else. Well, leave that to God. That doesn't mean that the songs are destroyed.

Steve Alessi:
We can still sing the songs as they bless us, pray for them. And know this. God will always raise up someone else to do what he's calling them, to do what he wants in the earth today. He will raise up new voices, and we will sing new songs, but we don't have to throw them out. And that's part of the. In my heart that I. I'm sad over a little bit, that I understand pastors and leaders, but worship leaders that fall into drinking or divorce or whatever it is, it's just like Ichabod.

Mary Alessi:
Yeah.

Steve Alessi:
And that's a tough. That's a tough thing. That's a really tough thing.

Mary Alessi:
The weight, the. I don't know the phrase that I heard about the Strong is the head that wears the crown. Something like that.

Steve Alessi:
Heavy is the head that wears the crown.

Mary Alessi:
Is the head that wears the crown.

Steve Alessi:
Yeah.

Mary Alessi:
We. We know that when we're in this realm of leadership that to whom much is given Much is required. It is. It's heavy.

Steve Alessi:
Right.

Mary Alessi:
And there's a lot there. Come on. You get an assignment from heaven.

Steve Alessi:
Right.

Mary Alessi:
And you think it's going to be easy. You don't think all hell is going to be released against you.

Steve Alessi:
Yeah.

Mary Alessi:
We got a dear young pastor leader in the church world now that's going through a divorce.

Steve Alessi:
Yep.

Mary Alessi:
Not of his own doing.

Steve Alessi:
No.

Mary Alessi:
Really sad.

Steve Alessi:
Not his choice.

Mary Alessi:
He's, he's like, what do I do with the, the anointing that's on my life now position? It is a real challenge.

Steve Alessi:
We live in a fallen world.

Mary Alessi:
It's a balancing act to carry the anointing and the mantle that's put on our life to preach, pastor, sing, write songs. That's heavy.

Steve Alessi:
Right.

Mary Alessi:
Then you balance that with the frailty of our flesh. That we are all broken pots. The scripture speaks about earthen vessels. We're broken pots. There's areas of our life that's broken. So what God then pours into us where there's brokenness seems to find its way out of us.

Steve Alessi:
Yeah.

Mary Alessi:
And so it's not easy. It's not easy. And these comments that we're making just are not to judge somebody.

Steve Alessi:
No.

Mary Alessi:
We just say to our listeners, keep your eyes open, keep your heart open, don't be disillusioned when there's failure. But also don't put somebody up on a pedestal too quickly.

Steve Alessi:
That's right.

Mary Alessi:
Don't ever do that. There's only one throne that in your life needs to be occupied by God and God only.

Steve Alessi:
That's it.

Mary Alessi:
Not by a man.

Steve Alessi:
That's right.

Mary Alessi:
Not by a woman. So hopefully, I mean, I got to go to the potty. This always happens after I've been.

Steve Alessi:
It has been an hour and three minutes. It's time to pull over.

Mary Alessi:
I got to pull over at the rest stop.

Steve Alessi:
I love this conversation. I think it's very helpful.

Mary Alessi:
Well, I've enjoyed this summer long play edition for you, you and hopefully you have too. So thank you for joining us today on the family business with the Alessi, Steve and Mary. We've had a great time chatting with you. Take care.

Mary Alessi:
You've just enjoyed another episode of the family business podcast with the Alessis. And we can't thank you enough for being a part of our podiance today. Now that you've learned more about us, here's how you can join in in the family business. First, make sure you're following our podcast podcast right now and download this episode so you can hear it at any time. Second, think of someone you know that might need or enjoy this episode and share it with them. You'll be helping them and helping us to spread the word about the family business. Third, go to alessifamilybusiness.com and tap the Ask the Alessi's button. This is really cool.

Mary Alessi:
You could use it to record a voicemail comment or question and we can add your voice to our conversations. Finally, while you're on our page, tap the Reviews tab and you'll see a link to leave a review on Apple Podcasts. We love reading your reviews and we might even share them on the show. Thanks again for joining us and we'll see you next time at the Family Business with the Alessis. Because family is everybody's business.