Worship Leaders Gone Wild? Our Response to Michael Tait, Kirk Franklin, and Brandon Lake's "Bubba"

Stephanie Muiña:
I know, but it's like, how do you, how do you expect yourself to get into this world? You're. You're putting all of your opinions on the Internet and now it's like, oh, well, don't judge us so harsh off my comments. Like the, the Christians are the most judgmental people. The church are the ones that are commenting. Well, yeah, because we're trying to live out a Christian life for their standards.

Steve Alessi:
Hello. Well. Welcome to another episode of the Family Business with the Alessi's where family is everybody's business. Though today we're not necessarily talking about families. Stephanie Munya or Stephanie Alessi Muiña. We are talking about something. I'll launch it in a second, but this is going to be fun. I think you're going to like it.

Steve Alessi:
All right, so if you're joining us, listen, you want to be updated via text. We'd love to be able to keep you informed of what we're doing. So you can go ahead and text the word family. F A M I L Y for our all our Latinos fam I L Y family to 302-524-0800. Did you know, Stephanie? We are over. Hey, hey, over here. We are over.

Stephanie Muiña:
Look, 5,500. Come on, guys.

Steve Alessi:
Subscribers. You had no idea, right?

Stephanie Muiña:
I actually did because I look at yalls YouTube all the time.

Steve Alessi:
You do?

Stephanie Muiña:
I watch our family podcast all the time.

Steve Alessi:
Oh, my gosh. Well, good. 141 ratings on Apple podcasts. We need to keep doing that, making it better and better. If you like what you hear, please share it.

Stephanie Muiña:
Yes.

Steve Alessi:
Like it and share it with others and subscribe. We'd love to have you, keep you informed. It's interesting because the other night I was hanging out with a group of guys and one of them said, you know, I was on a long road trip, three hour road trip. And he says, I caught three of the episodes of the Family Business. He was very honest. He said, you know, I haven't listened to it much in the past, but he really enjoyed it. So he subscribed.

Stephanie Muiña:
Nice.

Steve Alessi:
Yep. So here we are. I'm with you.

Stephanie Muiña:
Yes, you are, dad.

Steve Alessi:
My oldest daughter, Stephanie.

Stephanie Muiña:
How long has it been since the last time you invited me on a podcast?

Steve Alessi:
I invited you? You know, the door is always open. The door to your dad is always.

Stephanie Muiña:
Yeah, it's been like over a year. I'm happy to be here.

Steve Alessi:
I am too. Because we're going to be talking about. We really should call this Bubba business. Bubba business.

Stephanie Muiña:
Yes, Bubba Biz.

Steve Alessi:
Praise in worship. In church. So here's the thing. You're a worship leader here at our church. So you're in the business.

Stephanie Muiña:
I am.

Steve Alessi:
You work with us. You do a great job at it.

Stephanie Muiña:
Thank you.

Steve Alessi:
Musical. You've done some of your own music in the past. You write songs. Your own songs. You had some. A nice contract and arrangement with Integrity Music. That was very cool.

Stephanie Muiña:
Yep.

Steve Alessi:
As a writer. One of their writers. So you're a excellent songwriter.

Stephanie Muiña:
Thank you.

Steve Alessi:
And you and your mom do a lot together with the writing of songs, collab together. You also do our Metro worship. All things Metro worship is with you and you and Alan Paul, who's in the podcast booth with us. You work together. So being that this subject today, it's going to be all about worship and what's happening on the national scene. Okay. Gossip's good. The national scene.

Steve Alessi:
We. We were just going to hit some topics. So here's the three that we're going to hit.

Stephanie Muiña:
Yeah.

Steve Alessi:
And we're even going to have a visitor join us later to get his take on it. We're going to talk about Brandon Lake, who makes a comment with regards to.

Stephanie Muiña:
The Bubba in the crowd.

Steve Alessi:
Bubba sitting in the crowd. So the worship in the church songs you're singing has to be able to connect with Bubba.

Stephanie Muiña:
Yep.

Steve Alessi:
We've had this singer, Mike Tate of the.

Stephanie Muiña:
Michael Tate.

Steve Alessi:
Michael Tate of the Newsboys.

Stephanie Muiña:
Yep.

Steve Alessi:
Abruptly resigned from his post as a lead singer early in the year. Only now to find out.

Stephanie Muiña:
Yep.

Steve Alessi:
There's some stuff going on there. And he's come out and he's admitted to his sin.

Stephanie Muiña:
Yep.

Steve Alessi:
Which has to do with drugs, has to do with alcohol, and it has to do with inappropriate sexual relations. All right, so these guys, both heavy hitters, and then maybe the heaviest hitter of all, especially back in the day in gospel music, is Kirk Franklin. Kurt Franklin. And he was called out by comedian Kevin Hart at the BET Awards.

Stephanie Muiña:
I have it right here.

Steve Alessi:
And they said something accused him of twerking. So we got some good fodder. We've got some good stuff to talk about.

Stephanie Muiña:
It's crazy today.

Steve Alessi:
So you want to start with Bubba first? What do you want to do? What are you thinking?

Stephanie Muiña:
I'll start off with Bubba because I'm half Bubba. I don't know if you know this. No, I'm kidding. Yeah, that was interesting. So I actually have a hot take on that. Yeah, I partly agree with what Brandon Lake was saying.

Steve Alessi:
Okay, so why don't we explain those?

Stephanie Muiña:
Let's explain.

Steve Alessi:
Go ahead.

Stephanie Muiña:
So, because a lot of people put Some words in Brandon Lake's mouth, I would say, because I watched the. The podcast he did with Bryce Crawford. I don't know anything about Bryce Crawford. I don't know anything about that world. But I watched the podcast, and what he said was kind of right. He was talking about how in. When it comes to worship songs that we do on Sunday mornings, and when it comes to worship, we have to keep in mind the simpleton in the crowd. And he.

Stephanie Muiña:
He named him and referred to him as Bubba, as the Bubba, the guy who is just coming off of work. And his wife, Brandon, like, said his wife dragged him to church. He doesn't really want to be there. How to. How do you relate to him? How do you make worship applicable and digestible to someone like him?

Steve Alessi:
Doesn't know anything about the church world. Doesn't really care about the church world. No, but he's there. And as Brandon referred to it, we're speaking Christian. Christianese in the music.

Stephanie Muiña:
Yeah.

Steve Alessi:
So continue.

Stephanie Muiña:
And I think maybe the bad thing about what he said was he referred to a song he quoted, holy, Holy, holy is the Lord Almighty, which is not that Christianese. But then I think that's what took his. His comments out of context. Something you have to know about Brandon Lake is that he started off with Bethel and then with. And then he went over to Maverick City, and then he went to Elevation, so. And I don't know who he started with before. I think it was actually Maverick and then Bethel. Anyway, he started off in the heavy, heavy spiritual church worship teams, where they're like the gold clouds of dust kind of people.

Stephanie Muiña:
Like, they're doing worship sets for hours on end on a regular Sunday.

Steve Alessi:
They're soakers.

Stephanie Muiña:
They're soakers. Like, unnecessarily, they go hard in the paint. And whether that's, like, your type of worship doesn't matter. His background is heavy, soaking worship. And then he blew up with his song Gratitude. I think that's what it's called. And then he started, immediately moved to Nashville, got really close to Phil Wickham. And Phil Wickham is the number one CCM artist.

Stephanie Muiña:
Like, tours every year for ccm. And he did a tour with Phil Wickham and was on a massive tour singing to the masses, very radio hits. So those are two huge different demographics.

Steve Alessi:
Yeah.

Stephanie Muiña:
You go from your people that have been in church all their life, they are obsessed with soaking worship. They're obsessed with theological kind of worship. They love to sing about the throne room. They love to sing about holy, Holy. They're waiting to see the dust cloud of gold to appear. And then he jumps from that to singing to the masses in stadiums, in arenas with Phil Wickham, to people that just listen to his music on the radio and are that maybe they go to church on Sunday, but they just like to listen to Christian music. So they don't listen to secular music, Right? So I kind of see where Brandon Lake's coming from, because he's looking at the people in the crowd that were dragged there by their family. Probably don't want to be there.

Stephanie Muiña:
They have no idea what it is to sing about. Let incense arise Let the entering into the throne room of heaven the veil was torn let's lay down our crowns Even though those things are beautiful and biblical and we need to learn about it. Have you ever sung to somebody, have you ever seen somebody's face when they don't know what that stuff means? They can't really worship. They don't even know where to start, right? So like you said, I help lead worship here every single Sunday, right? And we're in the heart of Miami. And in Miami, you have no idea what people's backgrounds are. You have no idea where people, what they did just the night before. And they don't. You don't have any context and worship.

Stephanie Muiña:
Something else to consider in every contemporary service today, in every. In every church service, worship is the first thing that a guest is going to see when they come to church. Those are the first words they're going to hear that a church speaks. And thank God for that, because we're putting our eyes on God in those first 20 minutes. But also, if I'm singing a song that's about day and night, Let incense arise and that person that's in the crowd just came, was at the club the night before, or they came from a Catholic background, they came from an atheist background, they came from a Buddhist background, whatever it may be. They have no idea what we're singing about. No idea. So I kind of get it.

Stephanie Muiña:
Like, I. When I'm putting together a set list, I have to be very mindful of where these people are coming from. And I was talking to Chris about it. Like, it's good to remember that it's part of the formula, like what Brandon Lake said. He's right, because it's just part of the formula of a set list. I get four songs on Sunday to worship God, so I like to include something that's very, very simple, like goodness of God. I thank you, God. I.

Stephanie Muiña:
I want to just worship you God, then I can do something that is a little bit more Christianese, so they say. But I like to lean more towards simple things because you have to make the worship digestible to the very general mixed crowd that's in your church on a Sunday.

Steve Alessi:
Very good. All right. So what then do you say about that mindset, watering down the church environment? Because now you're saying, I don't want to make it too holy, too spiritual. Then the opposite of that is, well, that means we're going to make it worldly. And if you're going to make it worldly, then you're watering down the potency.

Stephanie Muiña:
Yeah.

Steve Alessi:
Of worship in the environment. Do you think there's something to be said about that?

Stephanie Muiña:
Yeah, of course. Of course. You know, it is tough when we'll be in the middle. Like, we're singing that song Made for More. I wasn't made to be tend in a grave I was called by name Powerful born and raised back to life again I was made for more and it's the worst when you sing that song after a really good worship song. So, like a couple weeks ago, we did this is the day that the Lord has made. I will rejoice and be glad in it. And it's all about, like, this is the day God has made.

Stephanie Muiña:
The song put our eyes on God. It was very God focused. And then. Oh, and then I think we did. I thank God right after that. So again, God focused, and you could tell people had their hands raised and they were singing about God. Well, then we did Made for More right after that. That was very me focused and even me personally, I was like, oh, that was a weird switch.

Stephanie Muiña:
Like, the focus now is on me. And I could see why some people might say that dumbs down your worship. Because, like, I mean, as a worship leader, you want to take people higher and higher in the set list. You only want to take them deeper. And you have to be strategic in that. So when you throw in a song that is a little bit more shallow, like a Made for More. I can't think of another reference now. But you do feel that hard left turn.

Stephanie Muiña:
And you're like, oh, no, I hope I didn't just mess up all that the Holy Spirit was trying to do here for the sake of just pleasing the crowd.

Steve Alessi:
Right.

Stephanie Muiña:
It's tough, dad, because I've also seen God use some of the worst songs to bless people. Like, I really have. I think that when. I mean, if you're singing bad songs that just are bad, sure, it can dumb it down. But I Don't know. I think that if the culture of your church, if what the pastor. If what you are singing aligns with what the pastor is preaching, and if you are staying under your covering with your pastor and the pastor is speaking God and he's speaking doctrine and he's speaking sound things, I really don't think you can go wrong like we've sung some.

Steve Alessi:
Go wrong. By what?

Stephanie Muiña:
By shallowing the experience?

Steve Alessi:
Yeah.

Stephanie Muiña:
Because I'm sorry, there's some people in the crowd that are shallow.

Steve Alessi:
Right.

Stephanie Muiña:
That need those shallow songs.

Steve Alessi:
Okay. So the argument there on the other side of that is that they are shallow. But why go down to their depth on their level? Why not? I mean, if we're going to sing to God about God in the environment, then there's some scripture references to if I am. If I be lifted up, I will draw all men to me. That's that God is making that reference. So that then means if we lift him up, then men, bubbas will be drawn to him.

Stephanie Muiña:
Yeah.

Steve Alessi:
So that. That's the argument from the other side that people are saying, well, if we dumb this down, we water this down, then there's no power, no juice in the environment. So then there's no drawing to God. So they look at a. A Brandon Lake and they're like, you know, you. You're shallow, dude.

Stephanie Muiña:
I know, but I don't think he was advocating for a dumbing it down. I think he was advocating for take these big topics of truth and make them digestible. Psalm 23, the most popular psalm ever.

Steve Alessi:
Right.

Stephanie Muiña:
I. I can't believe. I can't quote it right now. He leads me beside. The Lord is my shepherd. I shall not. What? He leads me beside still waters. It says me a lot.

Stephanie Muiña:
Yeah, it's very me focused. It's very simplified. Even Psalm 91, he lifts up my.

Steve Alessi:
The.

Stephanie Muiña:
I will strike my foot. I won't strike my foot on the rock. The angels are around me. I think that people have a wrong definition of shallowing because I've seen some shallow songs and it's just. To me, shallow is just your image of your team. Okay. We have time to, like, work out these opinions on this podcast as we're going longer, so let's take some time here. I think that our definition, definition of shallow might be off.

Steve Alessi:
Okay.

Stephanie Muiña:
Because I've seen a lot of worship teams. I've seen a lot of worship bands just write bad songs and they get glorified because of their image and because of their tiktoks and because of the style that they use. That, to me, is shallow because the songs are just bad. They're just not good. But then you have these worship teams, like, Goodness of God is a very simple song. All my life, it's simple. And people. Is that shallow, though? It's not shallow because you're singing about the goodness of God.

Stephanie Muiña:
Simple and shallow, it's two different things. To me, shallow is a team that is trying to blow up their worship songs because of the image that they have and of the trendiness that they have. But the depths are maybe. What if the depths are simple?

Steve Alessi:
Yeah.

Stephanie Muiña:
Like, we're doing an internship right now with some musicians at the church, and last week I told them, print out all of the. The biggest songs from the early 2000s till now, all of the big songs. So they found All I Need is yous by Hillsong Oceans by Hillsong Holy, Forever, Worthy of it all. Good, Good Father. And all of the songs are simple. All of them that was. And I said, line them all up and find one correlation between all the songs. All of them had repetitive choruses and repetitive bridges.

Stephanie Muiña:
All of them. None of them got into Christianese. None of them did. The most Christianese they did was quoting scripture. So, goodness of God, your goodness is running after me. That's Scripture. Your goodness will run after me all the days of my life. Trust in God.

Stephanie Muiña:
I sought the Lord and he answered blessed assurance. Like it quoted scripture. That was as Christianese as it got. But they all were simple. And I think that's what Brandon Lake was trying to advocate for. Just simple worship that, like, yes, we need the holy holies. We need the liturgical worship. We need that.

Steve Alessi:
Yeah.

Stephanie Muiña:
But there's also room for the simple. And no, I. If you are balancing out your worship set, there's no way to make it shallow. I think that you are inviting those shallow people to go into the depths if you do it right. And, yeah, I think you need to meet them in the shallows. For one song. Yeah, for one song.

Steve Alessi:
Yeah.

Stephanie Muiña:
And maybe you singing about the goodness of God like it's simple, just like he was advocating for, but it's not shallow. Does that make sense? Am I making sense?

Steve Alessi:
Yes. Yes. I think that's kind of a good phraseology for it all. Well, here's the example. Jelly roll.

Stephanie Muiña:
Yeah.

Steve Alessi:
Okay. Yeah. I don't know where he's at in his walk with God, but he heard Brandon Lake. Lake. Sing that song. A praise.

Stephanie Muiña:
Hard fought Hallelujah.

Steve Alessi:
Hard fought Hallelujah Hallelujah. Great song.

Stephanie Muiña:
Yeah.

Steve Alessi:
And I don't know the Whole story. But he was interested in connecting with Brandon and actually I think it was his idea. If I'm not mistaken, I could be wrong.

Stephanie Muiña:
Yeah.

Steve Alessi:
I don't know the story that caused them to say, hey, we want to do this song with you, Brandon. So here's a guy, when you look at a jelly roll tattered up big as his room, not the guy. I think he came out of prison.

Stephanie Muiña:
Yeah. Yeah.

Steve Alessi:
Definitely searching for God. He would be the bubba in the room.

Stephanie Muiña:
Yeah.

Steve Alessi:
And now he is on this one song with Brandon Lake. And it's a beautiful, moving moment of a song that. That does it. The focus of it is more testimonial. I because of God and his strength, his faithfulness, his goodness to me. My life was such a mess, but I have this hard fought hallelujah. This, this victory that I'm able to have today that I can look up into the heavens, lift my hands up and say, yeah, hallelujah. I'm here, I've done it.

Steve Alessi:
I'm connected with God. I'm still living. I'm alive. It's a lot of me focused, a lot of flesh focus. But it does show you the power of a testimony to what God could do. If you do your part, God's going to do his part. So you could almost say that that would be a shallow me focus kind of a song. But yet when you listen to it, you connect with it.

Steve Alessi:
Because all of us are on this journey. All of us are trying to fight our way out of some challenges and battles that we have in our life. We know ultimately God's the one that's going to help us get through it. But we got to do the fighting as well. Greater is he that's in you than he that's in the world. We got to get him out of us. We got to fight while. While he's with us.

Steve Alessi:
So what Brandon really was showing us is even through his own life. All right. The songs that he sings is attracting the Bubbas of the world.

Stephanie Muiña:
Yeah.

Steve Alessi:
So if your mom was sitting here today, here's what she would ask. Because there was, I guess one person came out and just went on a rant.

Stephanie Muiña:
Yeah.

Steve Alessi:
About how this was wrong and that it was sin for Brandon Lake to talk like this and even consider dumbing it down and watering down the gospel.

Stephanie Muiña:
Yeah.

Steve Alessi:
Just going off so much so that your grandma, they went on there and blasted her. It's crazy because grandma got something wrong.

Stephanie Muiña:
Grandmother?

Steve Alessi:
Yeah. 84 year old grandma, 82 year old. She got all worked up, more or less told Us, you know, just stop your blabbering mouth.

Stephanie Muiña:
That's me, though.

Steve Alessi:
Oh, my God.

Stephanie Muiña:
I will be that person.

Steve Alessi:
I was proud of her. Be honest. She went at her. But mom was like, okay, let me ask that girl. When's the last time she brought anybody, any bubbas to church?

Stephanie Muiña:
That's what I'm talking about.

Steve Alessi:
Now, you know, if you're going to sit there and raise the finger of judgment against something like that.

Stephanie Muiña:
Yeah.

Steve Alessi:
Then. Okay. Who have you brought to church lately? Or put in an environment.

Stephanie Muiña:
Yep.

Steve Alessi:
Where the lack of Christianese would have, you know, been offensive or, or the Christianese would have been offensive to the people that you would have brought in? When was the last time you've done that? You've done that and you know, you, you've got to go back. I, I, we know that the Brandon Lakes of the world, the. For them to even be on a podcast that's talking about worship at that level. They have been around some people.

Stephanie Muiña:
Yeah.

Steve Alessi:
And they've seen the good and the bad and the ugly.

Stephanie Muiña:
Yes.

Steve Alessi:
Of what that worship environment can sometimes become when stages are so big and the lights are so bright. He's been there and he's probably like, you have. One of the hardest parts of our day on Sunday is the start of the service.

Stephanie Muiña:
Yeah.

Steve Alessi:
Right, Alan. It's the hardest part.

Stephanie Muiña:
It's the hardest part. Yes.

Steve Alessi:
You all have to get up there with your instruments, with your teams, and you're looking at people who's walking in exhausted. Just drop kids off at the kids ministry, running in late.

Stephanie Muiña:
Have their coffee in their hand.

Steve Alessi:
Have their coffee in their hand. They're tired. It's been a long week. They fought some battles.

Stephanie Muiña:
They're.

Steve Alessi:
They're having some challenges. They come in, they're not ready to, to sing their hard fought hallelujah just yet. They're. They're not.

Stephanie Muiña:
Yeah.

Steve Alessi:
And y' all have to, as we say, prime the pump. You got to get in there.

Stephanie Muiña:
Yeah.

Steve Alessi:
And when you do that, we all know this. Sometimes it's the music.

Stephanie Muiña:
Yeah.

Steve Alessi:
Sometimes it's a song. The words of a song can pull people up. Most of the time it's not.

Stephanie Muiña:
Yeah.

Steve Alessi:
Most of the time you have to create an environment. Okay. That is now drawing people in to go somewhere.

Stephanie Muiña:
Yep.

Steve Alessi:
Because your job is hard.

Stephanie Muiña:
Yep.

Steve Alessi:
And I think, you know, back in the day, for me, even to this day, I don't come out at the beginning.

Stephanie Muiña:
No.

Steve Alessi:
I don't. Because it's half full. And I, I don't want to get my heart all messed up. In my head all messed up seeing half the people there. And then when you're doing your music, people coming in late, so it's distracting, and that drives me crazy. As I'll get out. Y' all don't have that option. You got to get out there.

Steve Alessi:
You had to choose a song list, choose the right kind of singer that's going to be a part of that song list. And most of our churches don't have full time. What Maverick City or. Or what some of these other churches elevations on bring to the table with all their. Their worship people. You guys are in most churches. 95% of the churches are running on volunteers, so they're getting there late. They're.

Steve Alessi:
They're trying to now, you know, learn a song. So you're pulling a set list together.

Stephanie Muiña:
Yep.

Steve Alessi:
That's tough.

Stephanie Muiña:
It's so tough. And I. There was. It happens all the time where I will be deep in worship, and I think that I'm having a moment with God, and I open my eyes, and the people in the front row are just looking at me, or they have their phone right up in their face videotaping me, and I'm like, hello. Glad you're a part of this. And I'll. In my mind, I'll think, okay, maybe I need to go deeper. Maybe we need to extend the song.

Stephanie Muiña:
Let's put on a hymn. The hymn will make them sing. Come on. And in my head, I'm like, just get off the stage. They just want to hear the sermon. I've told so many of the youth worship team, like, hey, if you feel like you need to go deeper, if you really feel like there's a night where you need to extend the song, try it. But nine times out of 10, they just want to hear the sermon. They're probably just going to get something from the sermon.

Stephanie Muiña:
Just get off.

Steve Alessi:
All right, so I do want to say to you. I'm in agreement with you. Yeah, Yeah. I think that was an overstep. Yeah, that was an overstep on somebody to sit there and judge that comment. Because the church environment is about God. Yes. But it's about people, too.

Steve Alessi:
And if we can sing something that's going to say to the person out there, you're good. You know, you're. You're worthy of it. Don't walk in shame.

Stephanie Muiña:
Yeah.

Steve Alessi:
It's good that you're here today. You're. You're going to get touched. You're going to be encouraged.

Stephanie Muiña:
Yes.

Steve Alessi:
Then that's a good thing. And when you. Music. Who's just it's a universal language.

Stephanie Muiña:
Yep.

Steve Alessi:
It's going to move people. And because we are so me focused. That is who we are.

Stephanie Muiña:
Yeah.

Steve Alessi:
Part of that service has to be about the person.

Stephanie Muiña:
Yeah.

Steve Alessi:
So it's not dumbing down the environment, but where we start at the beginning of it, where there is that entry level. It can't stay at the entry level. It's got to go deeper.

Stephanie Muiña:
Yes.

Steve Alessi:
Or it's got to go higher.

Stephanie Muiña:
Yes.

Steve Alessi:
And it's. You know, my biggest complaint over the years was they talk about the seeker sensitive crowd. My biggest complaint over the years was that people were bringing secular music to the table.

Stephanie Muiña:
Yeah.

Steve Alessi:
And singing it. That was in church.

Stephanie Muiña:
Yes.

Steve Alessi:
And that was ridiculous because now you're like, okay, you're going to use a secular song to try to do something spiritual.

Stephanie Muiña:
Yeah.

Steve Alessi:
Now that. That wasn't going to flow.

Stephanie Muiña:
Yeah.

Steve Alessi:
So that was a big difference between what Brandon was like Lake was saying, so, hey, we're pro Brandon Lake. And what he was able to say was true. Let's keep a good balance.

Stephanie Muiña:
No. And don't forget Brandon Lake was the guy that went into all those prisons and led worship to thousands of prison members. And something else to consider, one last thing about this is. Well, actually it can apply to the rest of what we're going to talk about. Every worship singer and songwriter is called to different things. Is are we going to bring him in?

Steve Alessi:
Bring in your brother. Keep going.

Stephanie Muiña:
Oh, man. Bring in my brother. So every worship leader is called to different things. Every singer, songwriter is called to different things.

Steve Alessi:
Here he is.

Stephanie Muiña:
And I'm gonna get very music industry, which means you guys aren't gonna pay attention to me. You're not gonna really care what I'm saying. But if any listeners care about music industry stuff, this is for you. So you're gonna have your mainstream artists and you're going to also have your non mainstream artists. And the truth is the non mainstream artists are probably better musicians, better writers, better singers than the mainstream. Because the mainstream artist has to sacrifice a little bit of complexity in their instrumentation and in their music musicality to appeal to the masses. Like that's just the fact of it, like Espresso from Sabrina Carpenter, that it's not that it was an easy song to write, but it is not an advanced song musically. So that if you, if Brandon Lake feels called to reach the masses, like on the radio, his face on billboards, he's going on tours, then he will have to sacrifice a little bit to appeal to the masses.

Stephanie Muiña:
Then you have like your David Binions, who wants to write an album about the Revelation, the book of Revelation.

Steve Alessi:
Yeah.

Stephanie Muiña:
And that will not appeal to the masses. That's just not going to happen. But it's going to appeal to a niche group of people that love it, that want to go deep. So. And you have to just know as a writer, as a worship leader, what you're called to do.

Steve Alessi:
Well, you got your hair product in.

Stephanie Muiña:
See, they don't care what I'm talking about.

Steve Alessi:
There we go.

Chris Alessi:
I didn't say anything. You said great things. She's a little bothered. She's promised a walk in song.

Steve Alessi:
Okay, you didn't get you. All right, so we pretty much beat up the Bubba comment. And we favor on the side of Brandon Lake. Yes, we agree.

Chris Alessi:
Oh, yeah.

Steve Alessi:
All right. So do you have any input before I ask you a big.

Chris Alessi:
Yeah, no, we were just talking about it earlier. I just think that, you know, even the idea of appealing to the lowest, you know, common denominator, whatever it is, C.S. lewis wrote some of the deepest theological work that anybody can find. And yet he's kind of most known for A, his kids books or B, his book Mere Christianity, which was written for the purpose of what is the lowest common thread of Christianity that people can understand. You need all of it. You need the music for the Bubbas. You need the music for the deepest moments of your life. You need all of that.

Chris Alessi:
We were talking. You know, we actually are teaching people theology in our worship, and we're worshiping God at the same time. So in every room in every church, there's a first grader in the faith, there's a PhD student in the faith, and this one has the hard job of putting together a set list that can teach all of them, pull all of them, prepare all of them. And I just believe that if the heart is right, God is blessed by it all.

Stephanie Muiña:
Yes.

Steve Alessi:
Very good. Well, we're all in agreement. Okay, so here's the other issue. Maybe we should hit the twerking.

Chris Alessi:
Yeah, I'm very passionate about this one.

Steve Alessi:
Do you know. Would you like to explain the. How this all came up?

Chris Alessi:
Well, it's been years in the making. So Kirk Franklin blew up at first back in the. In the 90s, and Kevin Hart joking.

Stephanie Muiña:
About Kirkland.

Chris Alessi:
You know, and. And he really wrote some great music. I grew up loving Kirk Franklin. Mom was even kind of loosely connected to the same people, same world, so she was always a big, big fan and friend of Kirk Franklin. But it just seemed like a few years back, it just really looked like he Looked at artists of the world and decided, I'd rather do what they're doing, but just keep singing my stuff.

Stephanie Muiña:
Yeah.

Chris Alessi:
And videos just started surfacing of the way he was performing. And, I mean, the whole point of this podcast was, hey, we're talking about things around the table. We should put a camera around it. There were conversations around the table about what he was doing being downright disgusting.

Stephanie Muiña:
Yeah.

Chris Alessi:
And I know we want to be more careful with how we say it, but it really was. Yeah, it was appalling.

Stephanie Muiña:
Yeah.

Steve Alessi:
Yeah.

Chris Alessi:
The way that somebody who is a gospel artist would behave on the platform, sometimes even basically being shirtless.

Stephanie Muiña:
Yeah.

Chris Alessi:
And so recently, the world has noticed.

Stephanie Muiña:
Yeah.

Chris Alessi:
And so even this is kind of funny. Kevin Hart. Well, this was at the Grammys, right?

Stephanie Muiña:
This is the BET Awards.

Chris Alessi:
At the BET Awards.

Stephanie Muiña:
Do me a favor. When you get your award tonight, don't come up here from front twerking. Okay. Don't come up here popping. Don't do it, Kirk. Don't do it. That's what Kirk be doing. He'd be trying to blame it on the Lord.

Stephanie Muiña:
The Lord didn't ask for that. Put it away, Kirk. Put it away.

Chris Alessi:
It reminds me of when Joe Rogan, years ago, was talking about Carl Lentz. And it's like when the world notices that there's a breakdown between a Christian and what they're putting out into the world. And they're like, what you always say when their presentation is not matching their presentation. When the world notices that it's crazy. It's like, oh, that's what happened to Kirk.

Steve Alessi:
Nobody in the church wanted to point it out. It took Kevin Hart.

Stephanie Muiña:
Took Kevin Hart to joke about it, I know.

Steve Alessi:
On the BET stage. And, you know, the crazy thing is I really like Kurt Franklin.

Stephanie Muiña:
Kirk Franklin. I know.

Steve Alessi:
I like what he used to do with his music. And he was. I think he was embarrassed. If you watch, he's clearly a message. And then in his acceptance speech of one of his awards, he kind of let everybody know. I don't always walk it like I should. I don't always sing like I could. I'm not even that good great of a singer.

Steve Alessi:
And he looked like he was humbled quite a bit up on that stage in environment, which, hey, if that's what this will do, great, because I like him. I would hate for him to be that guy that at the end of his reign or the end of his career, he would be remembered for this, for twerking instead of all the great music that he brought to the church and the body of Christ. Because I know, man. He's a legend in that environment and his family. Good people. Yes, good people. Just maybe. Maybe the draw of that huge stage, you know, gets a little too Hollywoodish now.

Steve Alessi:
It becomes more show. And that's not. That. That's not good.

Stephanie Muiña:
No. And I can't imagine what that must be like. When you were number one for, like, a decade, and every time you'd put out an album, it was like Everybody bought your CD, everybody came out, you signed all of those CDs, like, you were the top dog only for a generation to pass. And now it's Maverick City is top dog. Hillsong. You've got these kids that are putting on this rock band. Like, that's gotta be really hard. And then the only way for you to be number one again is to make something viral, to have, like, a viral moment.

Stephanie Muiña:
And I think that. Honestly, I just think he kind of got caught up in the social media. I really just think that's all.

Chris Alessi:
It was, like, so much nicer than me.

Stephanie Muiña:
Yeah, I know. I know.

Steve Alessi:
Boy, please, why are you turning red? Go.

Stephanie Muiña:
No, but let me finish what I'm saying, okay? Because live by the viral. Die by the viral. Like, if. If you're gonna now be on center stage and you want people's attention and you love, you get the satisfaction of everybody raving about you online from all of your cool songs and the way that you're dressing, okay. Now you're in the spotlight, the gear, they're gonna come at you for those things. And I think that he just was like, oh, man, I went too far into this. That was dumb. I need to back off, because it just made him look, like, shallow like all the rest of the influencers, like the rest of those social media heads.

Steve Alessi:
All right, Bubba.

Chris Alessi:
You know, dad, to me, it's a struggle because it's the. The length of time you're in the game, the more you should know.

Stephanie Muiña:
Yeah.

Chris Alessi:
And we can't come and say to he who has been given much, much is required. And then all of a sudden, you're right. When a guy is getting to the end of his life and he's clearly been given a lot.

Stephanie Muiña:
Yeah.

Chris Alessi:
Suddenly go, well, you know, man, it just got to his head. It's like, well, look at the punishment all throughout Scripture for the kings that looked at what God had done in their lives and said, you know what? This was me. And, yes, if they repented, they were. They were all right.

Stephanie Muiña:
Yeah.

Chris Alessi:
But that. That's the reality. That's the doorstep I think he's at needing to show repentance.

Stephanie Muiña:
Yeah.

Chris Alessi:
It's not something tiny. It's. Man, you, you got to this place in your head where you really thought when you got to a concert, your name is the one that needed to be on all the walls.

Steve Alessi:
Yeah.

Chris Alessi:
And that, that I can understand how little by little by little you get there.

Stephanie Muiña:
Yeah.

Chris Alessi:
And I can even understand the need for brands in the Christian world. Like, I, I, I get all that. But to get to the place where you're singing songs about God and you're doing things with your body. Kevin Hart wouldn't even do. There's something in your, in. There's something that's gone really wrong.

Stephanie Muiña:
Yeah.

Chris Alessi:
And if he recognizes he's at the doorstep of repentance, like that's where he's needed, you'll get, you'll get my fandom back. Like, I think that would, even, even that would show any deeper level of somebody who is honorable that they'll go, shoot, I missed the mark there. But it's been a long time coming.

Stephanie Muiña:
Yeah.

Chris Alessi:
And a lot of people before Kevin Hart have had opinions on this and he has not only doubled down, but he's allowed his team. If you go on his Instagram and you go through his reels, it is close up shots of him doing these.

Stephanie Muiña:
Right. You're right.

Chris Alessi:
And then followed by opinions that are much more here's what I think and not hey, here's what, here's what's wisdom or here's what what God's doing. So it seems to be a sign, unfortunately, of pride. And I just think every aspect of this conversation needs to be represented. Dad, you're absolutely right. The church needs to be able to welcome him 100% back with open arms because no. Especially as a young man, I don't want to hang this man by a noose that maybe one day I have to walk into because pride will come for us all at the same time if we're going to tell people to. He who is given much, much is required, man. Kirk, it's hard to look at what God has given you and say that you're.

Chris Alessi:
He hasn't given you a lot more than he's given a lot of other people. Like you are required. He should be representing Christ at the BET Awards, and yet somehow he's a joke.

Stephanie Muiña:
Yeah. Cece Wines is doing it. She's, she's representing God. And you know, Chris, I think you're absolutely right. And another aspect to it is the music industry in the Christian world in Nashville is really is having a massive identity crisis right now.

Steve Alessi:
It always has, Steph, always.

Stephanie Muiña:
Because it's trying to take kingdom gifts and God given gifts and put it through a secular formula, and it's putting it through a secular strategy. And it never, ever works. I mean, it gets your name out there, gets you on a tour, it makes you super popular and it gets the albums out there. But for your longevity, for your character, for your commitment to character and to just being a basic Christian, it does not help that at all.

Steve Alessi:
That's the business aspect of this music industry. That's really not healthy at all. Back when I came out of college, 84, I had a little bit of money that one of my grandmothers had left all the grandkids. So I was going to be a concert promoter when I came back from college and papa had his church, and I'm not on staff, but I'm working because I had. My dad made me work construction when I came out of college, but I wanted to do concerts and I had the zeal. And so my dad's like, yeah, you can do it, but church can't afford it, so if you're going to do it, you got to pay for it. Well, all I had was that little inheritance, few grand from one of the grandmothers. And I'm like, you know what? I'm going to put that money to use.

Steve Alessi:
I'm going to use it for the kingdom. So I had a big concert, sold tickets. I'm thinking, okay, I'm going to make money on this thing. This is going to be amazing. We're going to get on the radio. WMCU is going to promote it. I'm all of 24 years old and I have this drive. This is going to.

Steve Alessi:
This is going to blow up our city, and our church is going to be known with this concerts. And so I scheduled like four of them in a row, and I'd signed contracts for all of them. Well, the first one ended up taking all the money of my inheritance because it was a terrible deal, couldn't get it done and so on. But the moral of that story, I mean, the story in the long run was I lost all that money. But what I saw when it started down the business side of it and what was happening behind the scenes back then, it was just so icky. It was not church work. It definitely wasn't ministry. It was all business.

Stephanie Muiña:
Yeah.

Steve Alessi:
And here these artists are getting up there with their band, and I'm thinking they're church guys.

Stephanie Muiña:
Yeah.

Steve Alessi:
No, man, they're out there smoking in the back, drinking, you know, and it's like, what is this? You're going into my church and they're cussing, dropping F bombs. Back then, it was like, whoa, what a rude awakening to that kind of world. And that's what it is. The business side of it can get so fleshly, so carnal. It is what it is. Right. So then you've got these guys in the middle of it. They're dealing with concert promoters, they're dealing with musicians, they're dealing with managers.

Steve Alessi:
They're. They're dealing with having to fill an arena. It's easy to go carnal. Yeah. So then when they're in the middle of that concert and all the lights are going and all this is happening, it's easy to go to the go in the flesh and stay in the flesh, because now it moved and we got to be real. And those big environments like that, that's not ministry moments. No, those are concerts. They're just moving a crowd.

Stephanie Muiña:
Yeah.

Steve Alessi:
Okay. So moving in the crowd that you're going to do, whatever you're going to do to entertain. If you're moving a crowd, you're in entertainment. And we should be very careful.

Stephanie Muiña:
Yeah.

Steve Alessi:
To not think the guys up there, Kirk or anyone else in that moment. All right. They're ministers.

Stephanie Muiña:
Yeah.

Steve Alessi:
They may be in a church environment, but in that environment, they're entertainers.

Chris Alessi:
Yeah.

Stephanie Muiña:
Yeah.

Steve Alessi:
And not everybody sees the dividing line there and can, can separate the two, which is why it just won't work. Because you can't be a minister one day and then be an entertainer the next and ride that line. Yeah. Because who's judging us? Is it the church that judged him harsher or is it the world?

Stephanie Muiña:
Yeah.

Steve Alessi:
Because in that bet environment, it seemed like the world took their opportunity to make a comment and a statement.

Stephanie Muiña:
Yep.

Steve Alessi:
That says, you know what we want. We may not be Christian, and we may not want to sit there under a minister's voice every week, but it seems like the world was saying, but come on, be a minister.

Stephanie Muiña:
Yeah.

Steve Alessi:
If you're a minister, be a minister.

Chris Alessi:
Well, here's the, here's the funny thing about that. I'm not going to speak to Kirk because I, I, I really don't know his motivation, but it would seem like somebody that would do exactly what you just said, get go carnal, because of all of it, would want the satisfaction, would want the affirmation of the world and of that room, not even of the church, that they might use the church as a launching pad, but eventually, they would want the world to acknowledge them. So let this be a lesson to all the young entertainers. The world's not going to appreciate you even if you step away from some of the spiritual, godly stuff in order to cater to them, because they will, in that environment, mock you.

Stephanie Muiña:
Yeah.

Chris Alessi:
So, you know, you use the term entertainer. Let's think about a comedian, though. Okay? Let's say a comedian gets up there. They're a Christian. We brought a Christian comedian in, Tim Hawkins, years ago. Hilarious. The only reason we brought him into the church was because he was a Christian. Said, man, the church needs Christian entertainers.

Chris Alessi:
That man was hilarious. He was clean. Nate Bargazzi, right now, probably the biggest comedian out there. Clean, family friendly, doesn't talk about anything inappropriate or use inappropriate words. The minute a comedian that says he was Christian would talk about something inappropriate or curse, we'd all go, oof, that's. That's a break in your game.

Steve Alessi:
Yeah, yeah.

Chris Alessi:
Why don't we look at musicians the same?

Stephanie Muiña:
I know.

Chris Alessi:
Why, why? But it's not about being a minister. It's about being a Christian.

Stephanie Muiña:
Yeah.

Chris Alessi:
Christians don't use words like that. Entertainers, comedians are not in any way claiming to be pastors. Yeah, they're entertainers. But the Christians want the Christian ones walk the line. Not all of them in their personal life, but when they're on the platform, they walk the line. I'm a clean comedian. My jokes are clean. I'm not talking about inappropriate stuff.

Chris Alessi:
And if they ever did step away, we would say, I know, but with singers, we just go, ah, you know, they're not worship leaders. It's not about being a leader. It's about being a Christian.

Stephanie Muiña:
I know.

Steve Alessi:
Yeah.

Stephanie Muiña:
And you know, it's so weird I today, this next generation, because our whole life has been put out on, on the social media. You think now, oh, well, you can't judge them because you don't know them. And I heard this one Tiktoker podcaster the other day, she was like, how could you judge these pastors and these speakers and these singers when you don't even know them? And I'm like, well, they put themselves out there, they're preaching out there. They put their, their videos on TikTok, they put their message on YouTube for. And there's a comment section. This world requires judgment. This world is going. You're going to take recruit, you're going to take critique.

Stephanie Muiña:
But also, like the church, we aren't judging you just because we don't like you. We're trying to maintain a standard.

Chris Alessi:
And by the way, the logic of that doesn't hold up because if that person actually believed you shouldn't be judging that person, they wouldn't judge you for judging that person.

Stephanie Muiña:
I know, but it's like, how do you. How do you expect yourself to get into this world? You're. You're putting all of your opinions on the Internet, and now it's like, oh, well, don't judge us so harshly.

Steve Alessi:
I'll turn off my comments like the.

Stephanie Muiña:
The Christians are the most judgmental people. The church are the ones that are commenting. Well, yeah, because we're trying to live out a Christian life where there's standards.

Steve Alessi:
Yeah. Standard. All right, so then this brings us to a really sad story. Okay? This Michael Tate newsboys, man. This is what ultimately happens, though, if you don't get spot checked.

Stephanie Muiña:
Yeah.

Steve Alessi:
All right, so if Kurt's not getting spot checked and Brandon's not putting it out there to. All right, let's challenge your thoughts here. Or the whole idea of your statement. Then you end up with a Michael Tate, who is lead singer for Newsboys, and they've been around forever, but the guy abruptly resigns in January. Then only. And it just came out again today. More information about it. Only then to find out that on their tours, in the tour buses, this guy's doing coke.

Steve Alessi:
This guy's doing drinking alcohol, as are others on the. In the tour bus. But three gentlemen, young men, come out saying that he sexually fondled them, mess with them during these tour rides and tour buses and in events and even at his home and his Jacuzzi and stuff. And it's. It's really kind of sick.

Stephanie Muiña:
Yeah.

Steve Alessi:
That this guy, who is so talented. I know, has this stuff going on. And this was not, like, for a year. This goes on for a few years, from what I understand. And nobody. Decades, decades, nobody called it out.

Stephanie Muiña:
I know. I know. You know.

Steve Alessi:
Yeah. That's about it. It breaks your heart. You don't know what to say.

Chris Alessi:
If a Christian ever has to sign an NDA to be at a Christian event, you probably shouldn't be there. And the reason it doesn't get out is because of stuff like that. The reason that it randomly comes out all this time later is because those NDAs go out. And you know, that really does. It really does draw a line between the church and the body of believers. Yeah, right. One of the mistakes Christians make is the minute we hear someone shares our faith, we think they are. They are Billy Graham.

Chris Alessi:
They are somebody who is just like us. Would Be in here talking like us. And that could not be further from the truth. And, you know, one of the weirdest verses in Scripture is, okay, fine. Be gentle as doves, but be wise as serpents.

Stephanie Muiña:
Yep.

Chris Alessi:
And this shows. This is a reminder to the church. Even when it comes to the music, you're listening to the people that you might be celebrating. Be wise as serpents. There were tells with Michael Tate. We used to have conversations. I actually stopped liking Newsboys when he stepped into it, because I'm like, there's something about this guy I don't like. Now, I never would have thought this.

Chris Alessi:
Not claiming that, but there were signs.

Stephanie Muiña:
Yeah.

Chris Alessi:
And it just shows the need for. You know, I know we use the word discernment, but that sometimes comes across like a spiritual gift. I can tell things no one else can. That's not what I'm saying. It's. There are biblical principles that give people away, and I don't think.

Stephanie Muiña:
You know, I don't know. No, you're right. And one thing that I know about Nashville, I only was there for a couple years, going back and forth, but one thing I noticed is that Nashville talks. They talk. People know things. And if they gossip a lot over there. And they for sure knew about these things, for sure. Well, one of the guys came out and said that he realized that more people had experienced it, which means they were talking.

Steve Alessi:
Yeah.

Stephanie Muiña:
And the fact that not one executive, not one A R rep, not one booking agent, not one person sat back and thought, he's leading these people in. What would people do if they knew that I was a Jesus freak? He did a whole movie about, my God's not dead. He's surely alive, and he's living on the inside.

Chris Alessi:
The videos we're showing are kids right now of them singing the old songs. Like, I'm in the Lord's army is sang by Michael Tate. And they came out in the last three or four years.

Stephanie Muiña:
Not one. And maybe they did. We don't know. But why didn't anybody say, hey, you need help? You are cocaine.

Steve Alessi:
Yeah.

Stephanie Muiña:
Cigarettes are one thing, but cocaine. And then to even allow a whole environment where cigarettes and drinking that hard is allowed on a tour bus, like, does anybody. A Christian tour?

Steve Alessi:
Yeah.

Stephanie Muiña:
I. I don't understand. I don't understand.

Chris Alessi:
You know, we.

Steve Alessi:
We. We.

Chris Alessi:
We destroyed David because David did a terrible thing. I mean, murder, Right? David did terrible things. The one thing you got to give David credit for, no one had to come and tell him. Except the prophet. The minute the prophet told him.

Stephanie Muiña:
Yeah.

Chris Alessi:
It was like, you're right. I did this.

Stephanie Muiña:
Yeah.

Chris Alessi:
The minute the Lord came and told him this whole plague is going on because you counted the people. Yeah. I get it.

Stephanie Muiña:
Yeah.

Chris Alessi:
That was me.

Stephanie Muiña:
You're right.

Chris Alessi:
This is absurd.

Stephanie Muiña:
Yeah.

Chris Alessi:
Because of how long somebody had to have said.

Stephanie Muiña:
I know.

Chris Alessi:
You know what I mean?

Steve Alessi:
Like, oh, yeah. But that. That's where dollars really talked, man. I know that money is a. It's a machine. That whole deal is a machine. And even in the Christ, somebody's got to be making money. There's sponsors out there.

Steve Alessi:
Those are expensive concerts. If you want to compete with the world to at least fill arenas.

Stephanie Muiña:
Yeah.

Steve Alessi:
Then, you know, it's kind of like when in Rome do is the Romans. You're going to have a lot of that stuff that. That is transpiring. That is not the way we do church work.

Stephanie Muiña:
No.

Steve Alessi:
And hopefully that stuff's not happening in church, though. There's. There's pockets of it. But this right here, that. This happens because we promote gift over character.

Chris Alessi:
Yeah.

Stephanie Muiña:
Yes.

Steve Alessi:
And it's a constant in the entertainment world. It is. And so you just don't look at the character of these people. And some of them are set up for failure because we do put them on a platform.

Stephanie Muiña:
Yeah.

Steve Alessi:
And the moment we put them on a platform or a pedestal, you. That just means you're going to come off that thing. You can't stay there forever. And the enemy wants to come in. Scripture says kill, steal, destroy. He's not our friend. So when we buy into his ways, he on the other side of that of his ways, buying into the. The.

Steve Alessi:
The evil of it, the sin of it. The wages of sin is death.

Stephanie Muiña:
Yeah.

Steve Alessi:
There's death on the other side of it. And the enemy is going to bring you so far that he's going to ate. You're not my bud. I don't care for you. I don't. He doesn't know love.

Stephanie Muiña:
Yeah.

Steve Alessi:
So he entices you in with something that feels so good, looks so good. Sin is always good for a season.

Stephanie Muiña:
Yeah.

Steve Alessi:
But when that season's up, get ready y. Now comes the death. So you've got now a career that is destroyed. You've got other people who worked with you all these years and the other band members, what they know. Who knows?

Stephanie Muiña:
Yeah.

Steve Alessi:
Now, he did come out. You got to give him credit. He. He's really repented. He didn't try to cover his sin. He's been through therapy and he's been through treatment center to try to help him with the alcohol and the Drugs. And he knows that he's pretty much ruined his life and his reputation, and he's very apologetic to those that he has hurt. So it's good to see that he's coming out in that way to say, man, I've sinned.

Steve Alessi:
You know, guys, forgive me. I've hurt you. Yeah, it's good to see that that's what ultimately we want, because we do know that we are mere human beings. We are flesh, and we. We will make a mistake. We just, you know, we as a family. I'd like to start to bring this thing in, because why are we even doing this today? We're. We're having this conversation like we're together in our living room around the dinner table, having lunch after church on Sunday.

Steve Alessi:
We're having this conversation because it reminds us of what we can never allow to happen within our ranks. And success is beautiful. We're thankful for the success, but we know that it's part of the three GS. We can't touch the glory of it. That's not ours. God is blessed. When God gives you a song, Steph, it's not. May have your name on it, songwriting, but we know ultimately it came from God.

Stephanie Muiña:
Yeah.

Steve Alessi:
When God gives you a message, Chris, and you're up there and you're speaking it and you're sharing it, and you're getting the applause of men, you know, it's not ultimately you. And when we get up on that, our stage, our platform to do what we do, we know there's a whole lot of people that are trusting exactly that we are the same people off the stage as we are on the stage. So we're not judging these people that we bring to the table today. No. We judge ourselves first.

Stephanie Muiña:
Yeah.

Steve Alessi:
And, you know, we call each other out.

Stephanie Muiña:
Yeah.

Steve Alessi:
Our. Our stuff don't stink. I mean, our stuff does stink.

Chris Alessi:
Yeah.

Stephanie Muiña:
Yeah.

Steve Alessi:
We're not going to let our mistakes cause all these precious people that we are following us to ever be hurt.

Stephanie Muiña:
Yeah.

Steve Alessi:
We don't ever want to fall into the hands of an angry God.

Stephanie Muiña:
Yeah.

Steve Alessi:
So we have these conversations. Someone says, well, you all are so judgmental. Okay. We want to judge ourselves harshly. We want to put the spotlight on ourselves. We want to be as transparent as possible. So. Yeah.

Steve Alessi:
Our views may come across as harsh, cold, judgmental. Well, we're holding. That's that same mirror that we're looking. It's more of a mirror than it is a window.

Stephanie Muiña:
Yeah.

Steve Alessi:
We're not looking into others, their sin. We're looking at ourselves, making sure we don't ever allow that to happen. And you don't want a pastor that's going to sit back and be easy on that stuff, because if they're easy on others, careful, they're going to be easy on themselves.

Stephanie Muiña:
So true.

Steve Alessi:
Yeah.

Stephanie Muiña:
Yeah.

Chris Alessi:
And, you know, one of the reasons why we talk about it is because even talking to you and mom about it, you bring a lot of perspective, because I remember being raised, and we'd be driving around, and you start telling us all about the guys that you used to look up to that used to be in the. And how. And how they fell and things that have happened, and some of them rebounded and figured it out. And it creates a grace in us to look at some of the people now kind of in our day where we say, okay, hey, this is. This is bad, but, man, I pray that he can rebound.

Stephanie Muiña:
Yeah.

Chris Alessi:
It also helps us spot sheep wolf in sheep's clothing.

Stephanie Muiña:
Yeah.

Chris Alessi:
It helps us make sense of. Of. Oh, that. That. That is not right.

Stephanie Muiña:
Yeah.

Chris Alessi:
There's something there that doesn't work. And so even you. You know, I think to label this conversation as judgmental is to be judgmental, because there is teaching going on whenever we talk to you and mom about it, and it helps us make sense of a lot of it, and, like you said, helps us decide. And I don't ever want to be that. And so just to kind of end, I love the verse in Colossians 1, I pray you may be filled so you'd fully please God.

Stephanie Muiña:
Yeah.

Chris Alessi:
And, you know, that's what we're hoping for. This is really not about being pleased. It's like, man, I just. I want to please God, and I know that might bring about a certain level of success, but I can't ever err on the side of all success pleases God.

Steve Alessi:
Yeah.

Stephanie Muiña:
So, no. And I'm. I'm glad we talk about it, because there is a gray area in today where we have these spiritual gifts that need to use secular formulas to share with other people, to share with the masses. But I think that what we've seen in the past is that industry completely takes over somebody who has nothing to lose. They're single, they don't have a lot of family. They come from a small town, so they want a big life. And it's the perfect candidate to take on tours, to be the lead singer of a band, to travel the world and write songs, live in Nashville, because you've got nothing to lose.

Steve Alessi:
Yeah.

Stephanie Muiña:
Well, you've got nothing to lose so you can make all the mistakes. And there's no one holding you accountable. And a one a great blessing and a great route to take if you are a striving writer, songwriter, artist, is to actually seek out those people that would break your heart if you lost. Get married, have your kids, stay at home with your parents. Live with your parents until you get married.

Steve Alessi:
Yeah.

Stephanie Muiña:
Be around your best friends that love you. Hang out with your church family. Have people to lose. Because if that ever have. If God puts his hand on something and you have to go, you have an anchor back at home constantly holding you accountable. You have people that you're writing for, people that you're leading in worship for. And I'm very grateful that that's how God routed my life, that I am surrounded by you guys, that this is my life because it makes me want to live up to something in everything that I do.

Steve Alessi:
Yeah, we like Clarkston Farms.

Stephanie Muiña:
Clarkson Farms. Yeah, I love it.

Chris Alessi:
I watched it last night.

Steve Alessi:
Did you watch it? Yeah. Jeremy.

Stephanie Muiña:
Yeah.

Steve Alessi:
All right, so I love the characters. Right. This is season four for them.

Stephanie Muiña:
Yeah.

Steve Alessi:
So who's is Caleb?

Chris Alessi:
Caleb.

Steve Alessi:
Caleb's on a comedy tour, so he's not in the picture. And he has this other blonde that comes in and she's smart.

Stephanie Muiña:
Amazing.

Steve Alessi:
Yeah, she is. She is. She knows how to drive those tractors. Work those tractors.

Chris Alessi:
Actors.

Steve Alessi:
And then Caleb comes back in the scene. So. So you got you. You've got the lead character, who is Jeremy. And then you got his wife. Right. She's sweet and she loves oil. She's creating.

Stephanie Muiña:
I love her. I love her.

Steve Alessi:
And then you got Caleb. But then you've got this. This nerd.

Chris Alessi:
Yeah.

Steve Alessi:
That he hates.

Stephanie Muiña:
Oh, he's a finance guy. Everything.

Steve Alessi:
He knows everything. But he comes in, anytime he sees him, he calls him like, oh, Mr. Killjoy or Mr. No Fun. Right. And the guy comes in and he lets him know, oh, you shouldn't have bought that tractor. Now it's too much money and you're gonna go into, oh, get ready. The you bought that building, but now you got zoning laws.

Steve Alessi:
We're not going to be able to get it. What. What's done. He. He always comes in with bad news, but he's like this nerd. Everybody else is cool and. But this guy is nerd. Can I tell you what I wish for you? I wish you two would be spiritual nerds.

Steve Alessi:
Cool is only cool for a little bit.

Chris Alessi:
Yeah.

Steve Alessi:
Comes and the applause of people to be celebrated and elevated is cool for a little bit. But being nerdy, it pays in the long run because Nerds sometimes end up being some of the solid, most solid people you ever get around because they. They know how to outlast all the trends, the highs, the lows. They, they. They just are steady eddies. Yeah. And we've got to be careful that we never think our light is that bright.

Stephanie Muiña:
Yeah.

Steve Alessi:
Our name is really that popular. And we. We don't have to live there.

Stephanie Muiña:
Yeah.

Steve Alessi:
Okay. There is something about the humble servant in Jesus.

Chris Alessi:
Yeah.

Steve Alessi:
That if we're to be Christ, like, we've got to somehow emulate that. Yes. As success comes, there's always going to be challenges. And the higher you go, higher the far, the farther it is down to fall because it's going to be. It's going to have its challenges, and we're going to succeed because we do things right. We do things in a healthy way. But that's one thing we're just not going to be able to compromise on. Guys, we live in a glass house.

Steve Alessi:
We can't compromise on our character, our values, our morals, and our spiritual principles. So, hey, we support every one of these people that we talked about today. We pray for them and their followers and those that have been hurt. We pray for them, but we also want to encourage them. Hey, let's keep our hand to the plow and.

Stephanie Muiña:
Yep.

Steve Alessi:
And let's just keep doing what we know is right in our life and for the kingdom and for ministry. So, hey, this has been one of our long plays for those of you who are on vacation. You're traveling. You needed some time to just veg and listen while you're on the road. Well, we just hit our first rest area. We're done. We're gonna go take a potty break and we'll come back with some more for the next portion of your travels in just a little bit. So thanks for joining us at the Family Business Podcast with Stephanie Alessi Munya, Christopher Alessi, and Steve Alessi.

Steve Alessi:
Take care.

Chris Alessi:
You've just enjoyed another episode of the Family Business podcast with the Alessi, and we can't thank you enough for being a part of our podius today. Now that you've learned more about us and here's how you can join in in the family business. First, make sure you're following our podcast right now and download this episode so you can hear it at any time. Second, think of someone you know that might need or enjoy this episode and share it with them. You'll be helping them and helping us to spread the word about the Family Business. Third, go to alessifamilybusiness.com and tap the Ask the Alessi's button. This is really cool. You could use it to record a voicemail call, comment or question and we can add your voice to our conversations.

Chris Alessi:
Finally, while you're on our page, tap the Reviews tab and you'll see a link to leave a review on Apple Podcasts. We love reading your reviews and we might even share them on the show. Thanks again for joining us and we'll see you next time at the Family Business with the Alessi's because family is everybody's business.